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#1 2003-08-15 7:23 am

XYZ
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Registered: 2000-07-03
Posts: 10881

Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

By Archbishop Bruce J. Simpson
Benedictine Order of St. John the Beloved (an Old Catholic order)

http://www.advocate.com/html/stories/89 … impson.asp

Pope John Paul II has felt it necessary to go beyond his critical statements of preceding months against legislative efforts to legalize same-sex marriages. He has now issued a document titled ?Consideration Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons? that will ?outline a course of action for politicians and other lay people to oppose extending the rights accorded traditional couples.? The Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith, the ultra-conservative watchdog of Roman Catholic dogma, prepared this document. It is a clear declaration of war on the gay population of the world.

The church in the Middle Ages?as a way to exercise further control over people?s lives?constructed the institution of marriage. In doing so, it was named a Holy Sacrament, and it has been treated as such ever since. The church does not ?marry? people; it ?witnesses? the exchange of vows and blesses the union.

The institution of marriage is portrayed as being under attack by efforts to extend the blessings of marriage to same-sex couples. However, if one looks at marriage today, one finds a horrendous divorce rate among not only Catholics but across the religious spectrum. Marriage itself is a threat to its own existence and is not affected at all by the movement to legalize same-sex marriage. How does allowing more people to wed endanger a failing institution? Should not the church be searching for ways to encourage two people to promise themselves to each other for life, and then to remain together? Should not the church be addressing massive adultery that takes place in these marriages? Or is the Vatican afraid that if same-sex unions become legal and acceptable, that a good percentage of its clergy would be partnered?

The Vatican relies heavily on the central thesis that the essential ingredient for marriage is the ability to procreate, to be ?fruitful and multiply.? This ?fruitfulness? becomes an essential part of marriage. In the section of the document titled ?From the Biological and Anthropological Order? the Vatican states, ?Homosexual unions are totally lacking in the biological and anthropological elements of marriage and family which would be the basis, on the level of reason, for granting them legal recognition. Such unions are not able to contribute in a proper way to the procreation and survival of the human race.?

If one is to believe and enforce this ?moral imperative,? then any heterosexual couple not capable of producing a child, or those couples who decide not to have children, should be prohibited from marrying. Using the Vatican?s parameter for the legitimacy of marriage, a couple who cannot for biological reasons have children, or who choose not to have children, fit into the same category as a homosexual couple?they will not ?contribute in a proper way to the procreation and survival of the human race.? If this is the mainstay of the Vatican?s argument, then this further ?reasoning? must apply.

In various sections of the Vatican document, we find ?natural moral law? used as a basis for appeal to Christians and non-Christians to promote and defend the common good of society. I?m not sure that non-Christians would agree on the same things that are necessary to promote and defend the common good. St. Thomas Aquinas, in his Summa Theologiae, Prima Pars ?on the nature of man and whether or not man has free will?states, ?In order to make this evident, we must observe that some things act without judgment, as a stone moves downwards; and in like manner all things which lack knowledge. And some act from judgment, but not a free judgment; as brute animals. For the sheep, seeing the wolf, judges it a thing to be shunned, from a natural and not a free judgment, because it judges, not from reason, but from natural instinct.?

The Vatican presupposes that homosexuals act out of free will and ?choose? to be homosexual while ignoring the evidence that one who is homosexual is homosexual by instinct and not by choice. Therefore it is a natural conclusion that homosexuals would seek each other out and form life-long relationships and families natural to their instincts. If homosexuals are homosexual by instinct, then they are of God?s design, and therefore good in their very essence, for God cannot create that which is bad or evil.

Homosexuals, therefore, cannot be ?objectively disordered, evil, intrinsically disordered, gravely immoral, contrary to right reason, insignificant, against good order, harmful to the body of society, deviant, and just plain sinful,? as the Vatican asserts. One need only to compare these adjectives with the men and women of history who were and are homosexual to see just how silly it all really is in comparison. I dare say, shall we look at the men, both historical and present, who were and are homosexual, and who have made up the Roman Catholic Church?

It is also sad that in this day and age, when the world is overpopulated, that the Vatican is urging strict adherence to prohibiting birth control and marriages that do not produce more children. The real sin is a family with children that they cannot feed, support, educate, and give a decent life to. Is it moral and for the greater good of society to have 10 children, when eight of them are starving to death?

One of the biggest lies contained within the Vatican document relates to the impact of homosexuality upon the young, arguing that equal rights for gays should be opposed ?to avoid exposing young people to erroneous ideas about sexuality and marriage that would deprive them of necessary defenses and contribute to the spread of the phenomenon.? This same ignorant reasoning is used in arguing that ?these unions create obstacles in the normal development of children who would be placed in the care of such persons.? And in the ultimate desperate, shameful reach for justification for this diatribe, the Vatican cites the ?United Nations Conventions on the Rights of the Child? as authority for preventing same-sex couples from adopting children. Apparently, loveless orphanages are preferable to adoption by gay couples.

The main concern of Vatican officials is that they are losing control not only over people but over nations. The Vatican was upset that their efforts to place certain phrases into the proposed constitution of the European Union failed. This is a loss of influence, and thus lessens the power of a theocracy. Now in America politicians are commanded to follow the Vatican line when approving or disapproving civil legislation regarding the rights of same-sex couples. This is tantamount to interfering with the rule of government in the United States, which states that separation of church and state shall be complete. A legislator or judge shall not bring to bear his or her own belief system or religious instruction upon his or her civil service obligations.

The Vatican is obsessed with the gay population of the world. It is Vatican dogma that gay people should not be ?unjustly? discriminated against but that they must lead a chaste life unless they enter into a heterosexual marriage. On one hand, they say, ?Don?t discriminate based on sexual orientation,? and then turn around and launch massive efforts to do just that: discriminate, hurt, and in some cases cause death.

The Vatican relies on scripture as a basis of this homophobia that has obsessed it since the 12th century. However, many theologians have discredited the ?on the surface? prohibition against the gay community. St. Paul, in his Biblical condemnations of homosexuality, was condemning male prostitution, especially as it related to temple worship. Further, Paul was concerned about and preached against man acting against his nature by having relations with his own gender. The intentional misinterpretation of the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in the 12th century by Rome set the stage for centuries of condemnation and hatred. It is interesting to note that in the 12th century, the Roman Catholic rite for same sex-unions also disappeared from view. Not much is known as to how often this rite was used, but it did exist.

It is time for the Vatican to pay more attention to world problems such as hunger and disease and war, and far less to the sexual nature of the world?s population. After all, isn?t that what Jesus would want?

For more information about the Benedictine Order of St. John the Beloved, go to www.osjtb.com.


there's really no need for all of this

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#2 2003-08-15 7:28 am

XYZ
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Registered: 2000-07-03
Posts: 10881

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

This archbishop happens to be openly gay. Interesting, eh?

It is a clear declaration of war on the gay population of the world.

It is interesting to note that in the 12th century, the Roman Catholic rite for same sex-unions also disappeared from view.

Is it moral and for the greater good of society to have 10 children, when eight of them are starving to death?

I also like how he discredits the ideas that homosexuals are deviant converters of the innocent, and that marriage must result in procreation.

The entire piece is well-reasoned.


there's really no need for all of this

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#3 2003-08-15 7:46 am

NokX
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From: Knoxville, TN
Registered: 2000-07-17
Posts: 6301

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

i still think it's odd that a person practicing homosexuality wants to be an archbishop in a religion that condemns it.

and i don't agree with alot of things the vatican says, mainly because they're swayed by politics as well at times.  but as far as this issue goes, God said homosexuality is wrong so i'd just drop it at that, personally.


"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it." Abraham Lincoln

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#4 2003-08-15 8:10 am

Northwind
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From: Dallas, Tx, USA
Registered: 2000-10-31
Posts: 2696
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Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

i still think it's odd that a person practicing homosexuality wants to be an archbishop in a religion that condemns it.

and i don't agree with alot of things the vatican says, mainly because they're swayed by politics as well at times.  but as far as this issue goes, God said homosexuality is wrong so i'd just drop it at that, personally.

God told you this personally?  Oh, wait, no, that's right, you read it in an old book of folk tales.

Once again, show me where your savior (Jesus, not Leviticus, Paul, or anyone else, in case you forgot) condemns homosexuality.  Once you've realized he didn't, tell me how you can reconcile "love thy neighbor as thyself" with hatred and bigotry towards ANY group.

You are really a terrible christian, Jesus would be appalled, but with wonderful irony, he would accept you in accordance with his own mandates despite your inability to rise above hatred.


Reality has a liberal bias.

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#5 2003-08-15 8:11 am

XYZ
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Posts: 10881

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

practicing homosexuality

down

Practicing homosexuality. Sure...


there's really no need for all of this

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#6 2003-08-15 9:05 am

Tallgeese
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From: Pool Party
Registered: 2000-10-17
Posts: 34007

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

And this is one of the things I like about the Catholic Church.  You can do things like this.  Dissent is practically expected.  If nobody's dissenting, nobody's thinking, and the Church believes that reason is one of God's highest gifts to man.


I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.

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#7 2003-08-15 9:23 am

XYZ
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Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

If that's true, why is the Vatican promoting irrational hatred/fear/persecution of homosexuals?


there's really no need for all of this

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#8 2003-08-15 9:26 am

Tallgeese
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From: Pool Party
Registered: 2000-10-17
Posts: 34007

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

If that's true, why is the Vatican promoting irrational hatred/fear/persecution of homosexuals?

show me the "hatred/fear/persecution" please


I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.

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#9 2003-08-15 9:27 am

Tallgeese
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From: Pool Party
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Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

Also, if you believe that human logic is always right and never flawed, you should join the AutoJC club.


I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.

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#10 2003-08-15 9:28 am

XYZ
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Posts: 10881

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

the Church believes that reason is one of God's highest gifts to man

Ha.


there's really no need for all of this

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#11 2003-08-15 9:28 am

cocoamix
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Registered: 2001-03-01
Posts: 7471

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

, God said homosexuality is wrong so i'd just drop it at that, personally.

God said "Thou shalt not kill" as well. Do you just drop it at that, or do you make exceptions when we're at war, or when it's a prison execution?


Jingoism - Extreme and emotional nationalism, or chauvinism, often characterized by an aggressive foreign policy, accompanied by an eagerness to wage war.

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#12 2003-08-15 9:29 am

XYZ
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Posts: 10881

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

The bottom line is that this bishop has directly condemned the Vatican's behavior. It cuts to the bone. Spin all you like. There are statements in that piece that you can't sugarcoat.

And, it's not even necessary. Anyone with half a brain can understand why 12 pages of vicious anti-gay propaganda promotes hatred, fear, and persecution.


there's really no need for all of this

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#13 2003-08-15 9:29 am

kb5zhh
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From: Baator
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Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

And this is one of the things I like about the Catholic Church.  You can do things like this.  Dissent is practically expected.  If nobody's dissenting, nobody's thinking, and the Church believes that reason is one of God's highest gifts to man.

Reading Catholic theological books is great because of it.  Catholics seem to craft the words that they use, and you can see that almost every word is chosen to convey exactly the right meaning.  it also has an extraordinary eye for detail and nuance which respects almost 2000 years of other writers and is often picking a debate up that has been left dormant for centuries to accentuate a current point.

Most other christian writers are so ahistorical and straightforwardly blunt that you wonder if they know anything besides the bible and today's news.

That said, I find the catholic church to be too tied to itself as the church in history, rather than the truth outside of history.


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#14 2003-08-15 9:29 am

Tallgeese
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From: Pool Party
Registered: 2000-10-17
Posts: 34007

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

the Church believes that reason is one of God's highest gifts to man

Ha.

nice refutation  roll


I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.

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#15 2003-08-15 9:30 am

XYZ
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Posts: 10881

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

If you had anything to stand on, this would be a debate.

On one hand, they say, "Don't discriminate based on sexual orientation," and then turn around and launch massive efforts to do just that: discriminate, hurt, and in some cases cause death.

It is a clear declaration of war on the gay population of the world.


there's really no need for all of this

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#16 2003-08-15 9:41 am

kb5zhh
Large Outsider (native)
From: Baator
Registered: 2002-08-13
Posts: 14066
Website

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

The bottom line is that this bishop has directly condemned the Vatican's behavior. It cuts to the bone. Spin all you like. There are statements in that piece that you can't sugarcoat.

And, it's not even necessary. Anyone with half a brain can understand why 12 pages of vicious anti-gay propaganda promotes hatred, fear, and persecution.

I'm sure this has been asked before, but i'm lazy and will just ask again.

XYZ: What's it to you what the Pope thinks?  I don't think you are catholic or christian, so why does the choice of beliefs of another organization that is completely separate from you matter so much to you.  I have opinions about Islam, but because it is not my beliefs, I'm not gonna go out of my way to criticize them.

I recognize and fully accept your rejection of Catholicism, but why then make a big deal out of it once you have gone on with life?


http://img.geocaching.com/stats/img.aspx?txt=Let's+go+geocaching&uid=f73587bf-aae0-40ce-aa46-381096d0d2bf&bg=1
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#17 2003-08-15 9:48 am

XYZ
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Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

Wow. How myopic and naive...

a. I was raised a Catholic. My family is Catholic. My boss is Catholic. Etc. So, not only have I had to deal with Catholicism directly (and continue to have to deal with it), other people deal with Catholicism too, which affects me.

b. It's absurd to say I have no reason to oppose bigotry/hate/whatever if I'm not part of the specific group that's doing wrong. That's like saying no one other than Jews should care if Jews are put into concentration camps. Ideology is often used to justify irrational or rational acts of hatred, like the persecution of Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, Jehovah's witnesses, etc. by the Nazis. The Taliban crushed gay men (or men accussed of being gay) with stones in public, and "justified" that action with religion. I'm not supposed to be critical of that, oppose it, and care?

c. This isn't just about the Pope. This is about a massive worldwide organized religion. The Vatican is the leadership of that organization. Whether I want to care about what the Vatican thinks or not is irrelevant. I am forced to.

I could go on, but hopefully you'll begin to understand that the way to deal with reality is not to plug one's ears, close one's eyes, and sing.


there's really no need for all of this

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#18 2003-08-15 10:11 am

kb5zhh
Large Outsider (native)
From: Baator
Registered: 2002-08-13
Posts: 14066
Website

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

Wow. How myopic and naive...

a. I was raised a Catholic. My family is Catholic. My boss is Catholic. Etc. So, not only have I had to deal with Catholicism directly (and continue to have to deal with it), other people deal with Catholicism too, which affects me.

b. It's absurd to say I have no reason to oppose bigotry/hate/whatever if I'm not part of the specific group that's doing wrong. That's like saying no one other than Jews should care if Jews are put into concentration camps. Ideology is often used to justify irrational or rational acts of hatred, like the persecution of Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, Jehovah's witnesses, etc. by the Nazis. The Taliban crushed gay men (or men accussed of being gay) with stones in public, and "justified" that action with religion. I'm not supposed to be critical of that, oppose it, and care?

c. This isn't just about the Pope. This is about a massive worldwide organized religion. The Vatican is the leadership of that organization. Whether I want to care about what the Vatican thinks or not is irrelevant. I am forced to.

I could go on, but hopefully you'll begin to understand that the way to deal with reality is not to plug one's ears, close one's eyes, and sing.

My mistake.  It seemed to me that you were just picking catholicism as an easy target.  If it is a group with which you deal with then carry on.

But I'll just add this caveat to point B.  I would never say to let them do what they want, just that they have the right to be a bunch of bigoted/hateful people if they want (I'm not saying that catholics are necessarily bigoted or hateful, just that they can be if they want).  There's a fine line in opposing another group's actions and trying to dictate thought for another.  I think that Christianity's traditional view towards homosexuality to be just horrible, and I support the effort to change that, both within the church and in society's laws.  But I have the right to say that homosexuals should be allowed marriages/civil unions/whatever as a legal construct, I cannot say that the Southern Baptist Convention should have a sacrament of marriage for gays.  I can say that I think they should.  Sometimes your anti-Catholic rhetoric comes across as the former rather than the latter.


http://img.geocaching.com/stats/img.aspx?txt=Let's+go+geocaching&uid=f73587bf-aae0-40ce-aa46-381096d0d2bf&bg=1
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#19 2003-08-15 12:13 pm

NokX
Member of the Month
From: Knoxville, TN
Registered: 2000-07-17
Posts: 6301

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

, God said homosexuality is wrong so i'd just drop it at that, personally.

God said "Thou shalt not kill" as well. Do you just drop it at that, or do you make exceptions when we're at war, or when it's a prison execution?

God gives the exceptions of when to kill.  there are no exceptions for homosexuality.  it's really not that hard.  it says it in black and white in the bible.


"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it." Abraham Lincoln

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#20 2003-08-15 12:18 pm

Neut
Eat the Path
Royal Wombat
From: Colorado
Registered: 1999-02-23
Posts: 10598

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

practicing homosexuality

down

Practicing homosexuality. Sure...

He means actively humping men, rather than just being attracted to 'em.  tongue


Cross over the cell bars, find a new maze, make the maze from it's path, find the cell bars, cross over the bars, find a maze, make the maze from its path, eat the food, eat the path.

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#21 2003-08-15 12:20 pm

NokX
Member of the Month
From: Knoxville, TN
Registered: 2000-07-17
Posts: 6301

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

i still think it's odd that a person practicing homosexuality wants to be an archbishop in a religion that condemns it.

and i don't agree with alot of things the vatican says, mainly because they're swayed by politics as well at times.  but as far as this issue goes, God said homosexuality is wrong so i'd just drop it at that, personally.

God told you this personally?  Oh, wait, no, that's right, you read it in an old book of folk tales.

Once again, show me where your savior (Jesus, not Leviticus, Paul, or anyone else, in case you forgot) condemns homosexuality.  Once you've realized he didn't, tell me how you can reconcile "love thy neighbor as thyself" with hatred and bigotry towards ANY group.

You are really a terrible christian, Jesus would be appalled, but with wonderful irony, he would accept you in accordance with his own mandates despite your inability to rise above hatred.

ha...what happened to you when you were 8 that made you hate God so bad?  (and you're the one telling me not to be hateful)

not agreeing with how someone acts isn't hatred or bigotry.  get that straight first and foremost.  i don't have to think that two guys going at it is ok.  i don't have to think that a man cheating on his wife is ok.

i'm not a perfect christian, never claimed otherwise.  but claiming i have hatred...ha ha.  that's hilarious and i have no idea where you're grabbing that from.  grow up. big_smile

now, here's something Jesus said in the NT...

'Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning


"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it." Abraham Lincoln

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#22 2003-08-15 12:23 pm

NokX
Member of the Month
From: Knoxville, TN
Registered: 2000-07-17
Posts: 6301

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

practicing homosexuality

down

Practicing homosexuality. Sure...

He means actively humping men, rather than just being attracted to 'em.  tongue

exactly...i'm not denying that some people actually do get emotions and feelings for those of the same gender.  but going through with those emotions/feelings is even worse.

like i've said time and again...  i could have feelings for my neighbors wife, but i need to get my thoughts off of that because i know it's wrong.  feelings can change...that's a fact.  just as if i were to become attracted to another male (and i'll be the first to tell you if a guy is cute or not...i'm very comfortable with my sexuality), i know not to engage in immoral thoughts about another male or even take it to the next leven and have a physical relationship.


"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it." Abraham Lincoln

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#23 2003-08-15 12:27 pm

kb5zhh
Large Outsider (native)
From: Baator
Registered: 2002-08-13
Posts: 14066
Website

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

now, here's something Jesus said in the NT...

'Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning


http://img.geocaching.com/stats/img.aspx?txt=Let's+go+geocaching&uid=f73587bf-aae0-40ce-aa46-381096d0d2bf&bg=1
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#24 2003-08-15 12:32 pm

Tallgeese
Sternly Advising
From: Pool Party
Registered: 2000-10-17
Posts: 34007

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

If you had anything to stand on, this would be a debate.

On one hand, they say, "Don't discriminate based on sexual orientation," and then turn around and launch massive efforts to do just that: discriminate, hurt, and in some cases cause death.

It is a clear declaration of war on the gay population of the world.

You hypocrite! you say I have nothing to stand on, and then you talk about "launching massive efforts" to kill gays and that it is a "clear declaration of war".  You have yet to show any truth in that, you won't argue - you only say "ha" and pretend like that's an answer.  Start giving evidence or actual proof instead of pulling unsubstantiated quotes and shrugging off anyone who asks for evidence.


I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.

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#25 2003-08-15 12:39 pm

Neut
Eat the Path
Royal Wombat
From: Colorado
Registered: 1999-02-23
Posts: 10598

Re: Archbishop condemns Vatican propaganda

You hypocrite! you say I have nothing to stand on, and then you talk about "launching massive efforts" to kill gays and that it is a "clear declaration of war".  You have yet to show any truth in that, you won't argue - you only say "ha" and pretend like that's an answer.  Start giving evidence or actual proof instead of pulling unsubstantiated quotes and shrugging off anyone who asks for evidence.

big_smile Let's get Best Buy to post good things about Clinton and Northwind to vote Republican too. wink


Cross over the cell bars, find a new maze, make the maze from it's path, find the cell bars, cross over the bars, find a maze, make the maze from its path, eat the food, eat the path.

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