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smurf, you morons technically cannot even prove that YOU exist.

Cogito, ergo sum.

,xtG
.tsooJ

pish,

"you" are thoughts?

so, rocks don't exist?

No.  I think they do, therefore they do for me.  Don't think they exist?
Try this little experiment:

Get one friend.

Get one rock.

Place the rock in your friend's hand.

Stand really still.

Have your friend throw it as hard as he can at your head.

Believe really hard that rocks don't exist.



Let us know how it turns out.

so, a rock that exists apriori of it hitting my head means that god may also exist apriori of any understanding or proof.

(this also follows from macos9guys comments)

so, the questioning of god ISN'T really the questioning of "god" - only the concept as it occurs in our minds.... which, of course, cannot contain the idea of god.

no one "understands" the rock - yet it exists?  no one "knows all mankind" - yet they exist.

all without proof.

God?  I didn't say anything about God there.  You challenged "Cogito ergo sum" by asking if rocks exist despite being incapable of thought.  I offered a way to determine whether or not they exist.   

As for

so, the questioning of god ISN'T really the questioning of "god" - only the concept as it occurs in our minds.... which, of course, cannot contain the idea of god.

Yeah, that about sums it up.

You could go so far as to say "I think, therefore I am; I think God is, therefore he is."  From a believing-in-God perspective, it also explains why so many religions require blind faith:  if not enough people believe, he could cease to exist.

Not that anyone with a believing-in-the-Christian-God perspective would ever accept that.   

You could go so far as to say "I think, therefore I am; I think God is, therefore he is."  From a believing-in-God perspective, it also explains why so many religions require blind faith:  if not enough people believe, he could cease to exist.

Not that anyone with a believing-in-the-Christian-God perspective would ever accept that.   

Weren't the old gods like that in the movie Merlin?

Yep. I remember that, one of the first tv-movies I enjoyed actually.

Amazing that the secularists are now moving from gentle persuasion to downright pushy tactics!

So the majority of America (almost 85%) believes in God! Are the secularists happy? Nope! They plan their strategy... "let's get God removed from every public mention of his name" they say and thus move into the public eye and herald all things "God" as fit fodder for removal.

Tolerance? Hell no! The secularists will not be happy until their aetheistic touch lands upon every believer and tolerance is not among their watchwords. Thus, for the religious and faithful, the secularists are now deserving targets... evangelical efforts along the lines of a crusade are now necessary to spread the good news of God, this nation's traditional faith, among the serpent lair of the secular entity.

God bless this nation for having a leader so supportive of our belief.

Camp David

delta wolph said:

"we are merely asking you to suspend yours"

Ok... then ask ALL religions equally to cease and decist rather than persecuting the Judeo-Christians specifically! How? Let me give you an example: Remember that 10 Commandments Statue in that Missouri Statehouse?  There were other religious represented within the building but it was only the Judeo-Christian "10 Commandments" statute that was singled out! The Indians worship the sun so I guess that image cannot be portrayed; the Hindu's worship the elephant and cow so those are out, other religions have pagan deities so a search of every publilc institution will have to be done to equally remove every image that could be construed as religious! A fools errand??? Yes. Therefore... whay are the secularists concentrating specifically on removing all vestiges of our God, the Judeo-Christian God? In short... why does it hurt secularists to have "God" on some public institutions? Get my point? It didn't hurt anyone for 222 years of thsi nation... it is only recently that the secular witchhunt has run rampant!

God bless Laura and George Bush!

Camp David

smurf, you morons technically cannot even prove that YOU exist.

Cogito, ergo sum.

,xtG
.tsooJ

pish,

"you" are thoughts?

so, rocks don't exist?

Yes, the point is that you cannot be sure of the existence of anything save yourself. There is no way to prove that what you see actually exists as anything more than a thought in your head.

It does not necessarily prove that one exists in the form apparent in one's mind. The reasoning is simply that for thought to exist, there must be some form of physical presence to generate them.

i am not saying we don't "exist."  i obviously believe that existence is rather important.  but like most existentialists, i believe that existence preceeds essence.  awareness, or self awareness is not PROOF.  which is the thread of thought that was occurring - the concept of proof or truth (of god).  you HAD to exist before you thought.  thus, proving god is pointless and impossible, imho.

based on those thoughts, the rock cannot really exist because it does not "know thyself."  thoughts are not proof.  but i live happily with the illusion.

perception is poisoned by semantics, so even if we could "know" god, it would HAVE to be different for each individual.  which is why religion is flawed, it springs from the failure of treating an individual idea as collective thought, or at worst, an absolute truth.

an object that appears to be blue, is, in fact all the colors BUT blue.  it reflects blue light and we think it is then blue.  when, in fact, that is actually the one color the object is NOT.

perhaps the only proof of god is that the idea seems to be eternal and almost natural, despite proof.

Ill bite, I am agnostic/atheist depending on interpretation.  I believe the problem with threads like this is that different people of the same religions believe differently, and attacking any single view of god that christians believe in, (like creation)  likely wont happen to be interpreted the way you expect.

I do not believe in god or the afterlife, you could call me agnostic because I believe there is a POSSIBILITY that a highly advanced creature or race sprung off the big bang, but I believe that this being or race is NOT omnipotent, and I believe that if they made it, it is possible for us to achieve the same.

I rejected organized religion long ago for the little tidbit that the way mainstream religions interpret their texts changes constantly, The catholic church 500 years ago would look upon a modern devout catholic as a heretic, to be killed or censored. Just as modern people look back on the blind non-scientific interpretations of the scripture, as a religious group like the amish are looked upon today.

(remember that baby that died of an easily treatable condition because the parents refused to let the child receive modern medical care?)

I believe our past and future are solely our own. (err and our creation's)

I do not believe in god or the afterlife, you could call me agnostic because I believe there is a POSSIBILITY that a highly advanced creature or race sprung off the big bang, but I believe that this being or race is NOT omnipotent, and I believe that if they made it, it is possible for us to achieve the same.

I'd put you squarely outside the Agnostic camp, and therefore I hold nothing against you.

Still on the subject of the ten commandments, I'm a bit torn on the issue. On the one hand, I firmly believe that the U.S. was quite frankly built on religious ideas and is actually a slightly anti-atheist government. On the other hand, I read an article in the paper the other day of a group of Summums wanting to add a "Seven Aphorisms" statue next to a Ten Commandments statue in a local park, and although I think the idea is silly, I can't come up with any logical argument or legal attack against it. It's just their right.

I'm a bit torn on the issue. On the one hand, I firmly believe that the U.S. was quite frankly built on religious ideas and is actually a slightly anti-atheist government. On the other hand, I read an article in the paper the other day of a group of Summums wanting to add a "Seven Aphorisms" statue next to a Ten Commandments statue in a local park, and although I think the idea is silly, I can't come up with any logical argument or legal attack against it. It's just their right.

1) not if you look at the original paper work. the foundation of our country was by folk that wanted little or no influence from any religious orgs.

2) it is only "a slightly anti-atheist government" since the era that smurfing god bless america was written.

3) i think it's a grand idea! let 'em put up their pagan statuary. it's only fair. 

i think we should "bare" false idols before ashcroft.

maybe we could strap him down and prop his eyelids open. <clockwork orange max>

let's face it. there is no god. if there is one, it sucks. and it's even bad at that!

What I find both confusing and amusing is how people say "I'm not an atheist because how could all this life have gotten here without a God" and then go on to say "Oh, and if you believe in his only begotten son, you shall not perish but have everlasting life."

Wait-a-cotton-picking-minute-here! How does it follow that if there is a creator, that the Bible must be his official message to us? Establishing a creator does not prove the bible.  How do you know the Koran is not the "official" word of God, or the Baghivad Gita? How do you know our founding Fathers were not correct, many of whom believed in deism, the concept that God just made his creation and then went on to let it fend for itself?

My point is, even if you establish the existence of God or a creator in your own mind, that does not establish the validity of the bible.  The one does not automatically follow from the other.

Billions of years ago there was a big bang in space. Nobody knows what caused the big bang, it just happened. From this big bang, there appeared this huge rock in space. It spun through space and cooled down. There was some sweet, brown, bubbly liquid on the top. Over millions of years, aluminum crept up the sides, forming itself into a can... and then a lid... and then a tab. And over millions of years, red and white paint fell from the sky and formed itself into the words "Coca Cola 12 fl. oz."

You know that if the coke can was made, there must be a maker. if the universe was designed, there must be a designer.

On the far side of a banana there are three ridges. On the close side there are 2. The banana and the hand are made perfectly, one for the other..  It has been designed with a non-slip surface. The outward color shows the contents on the inside. Green: too early; Yellow: just right; Black: too late. Now, at the top of the banana, you'll find a "tab," just like the Coke can. The wrapper is bio-degradable. Notice the point at top for ease of entry. It's even curved towards the face.

So, if everything has a maker/designer, who/what created God??!?

Does the universe have an end? How do you know it's the end? is there a brick wall with a sign saying "This is the end of the universe"? What's on the other side of the wall?

Jesus hasn't asked us to understand, but only to believe... obviously NOONE will ever be able to understand everything...

Actually there is a God... I spoke to him this morning about Howard Dean... he told me not to worry...

Camp David