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I would suggest this:  <snip>

I totally agree.  100%  But, isn't that the reason for starting AA in the first place?  The allegations that blanket qualifications tweaked by human involvement in the admissions process caused minorities to be excluded unfairly?

I hate to say it, but are you sure it was "unfairly"..haven't we been told that if we put our minds to anything, we can succeed?

Well how about people who are a "minority" try that...remember I am Dyslexic, I have a harder times than most to get my words across, and I am terrible at numbers... I have been published, I am trying for a job in Discover Card, because they say I am the most qualified person in the NE regon that has attmpted for the possition...I am a nationally ranked bowler, and I am trying to get a game produced with a group of people...

I was in the corner every day in school, being told by teachers I would never ammount to anything, look where I am, even though I am unemployed, I have more than most, I have had jobs that people try for...and I am trying for one that only one person will get...

I live in a s#ithole, I am unemployed, I had to fight to get unemployment, and I can't get help from the state because I'm not a minority, nor am I shaking up with a woman with my child...yet I am striving to better myself...

If I can do it, and get my head out of the sand, and work my arse off to get into better situations, I think anyone who wanted to can... if they "want to" but can't because "everyone is against them" then they don't want to bad enough...

There has to be a point where people have to take control of their own lives, and be able to take responcibility for themselves... just because their ancestors were slaves, does not mean that  they are crippled and can not get a better life if they want to do so...

AA should be stripped, and tottaly revamped, "minority" people have to chin up and work hard to get though life, well guess what, so does everyone else... "minorites" can get more free rides though this life because of how AA is designed if they choose to...well guess what I can't and somehow I am better than them... BS...

We are all born the same way, we all have to make choices, and if you expect me to be sympathy for living in the Bronx, and failing out of school, well guess what... you didn't try hard enough...

If you want a shoulder to cry on, go to Trent Lott...


Cyberpawz

I'm afraid I missed your point, Cyberpawz.  I'm well aware of what people are capable of,  I'm saying that the reason for AA isn't to get unqualified people in the workplace, but to get more qualified minorities in.  I'm ssaying that AA was instituted because allegedly the white man running the show was taking opportunities away from minorities like jobs and college admission based solely on race.

Ahh kk  

The word there that perks up my attention is Allegedly...

People can make allegations all they want... if the "black man" can't get a job that he is qualified for, and yet the person who did isn't...and is white... then I see an issue, but if you have two people with same qualifications, it is a choice...

That is why I suggested unless you take off the race and gener questions on the questionare, there will be never an "equal opportunity" for anyone.

I hate to say this, but has anyone ever though that the reason AA never worked, was because it was designed to fail?

Cyberpawz

Grades, class rank, test scores, recs, etc. are not enough.

A lot of "Gentleman's C" students realize extraordinary potential with the right opportunity and motivation during their college years. Albert Einstein, FDR, Martin Luther King, Jr., JFK, Ronald Reagan, George Bush Jr., and Dick Cheney were all average to mediocre students in college-- and that just names a few.

The unquantifiable potential qualities that can make an average student into an above average leader have to be considered. And there's a payoff. Students who are the recipients of that generosity pay back the schools with tremendous generosity in kind. That's why there are so many libraries, stadiums, dormitoroes, and scholarship funs named after them.

Grades, class rank, test scores, recs, etc. are not enough.

A lot of "Gentleman's C" students realize extraordinary potential with the right opportunity and motivation during their college years. Albert Einstein, FDR, Martin Luther King, Jr., JFK, Ronald Reagan, George Bush Jr., and Dick Cheney were all average to mediocre students in college-- and that just names a few.

The unquantifiable potential qualities that can make an average student into an above average leader have to be considered. And there's a payoff. Students who are the recipients of that generosity pay back the schools with tremendous generosity in kind. That's why there are so many libraries, stadiums, dormitoroes, and scholarship funs named after them.

But what did all the people who you named do...

They took a chance when offered to them...

Actually most of the people you named excelled in school, Bush "Jr" went to Yale...

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0878291.html

Bush "Jr" was owner of a failing oil company due to low oil prices, another company bought it from him...

That was his choice, and risk...he took it.

He failed the first time he tried to become Governor did he give up, for a while yes, but what did he do, he tried again...

That is the diffrence...the people you named didn't give up... the people we are talking about never try...

Cyberpawz

Well I for one didnt get a job due to AA.

Basically I applied for a campus security job, I filled out the application and got called in for an interview which I though went very well, if not almost perfectly. A couple days later I got called back and was told that I wasnt selected but they would keep my resume "on file."

Later I was talking to a friend whos brother was on the panel that interview me. He told me that they only selected the females that applied because of the quota that they needed to maintain. It also didnt help that the female interviewer torpedoed the male applicants, according to his brother.

I guarantee that I was totally qualified for the position (ROTC, previous experiance, ect.) but the jobs were not given out on qualifications it seems.

It doesnt really matter for me as I didnt need the job to survive, but I wonder how the other applicants felt.

No doubt!  I agree that history and recent history shows a mountain of racism and injustice.    My argument, however, is that continuing the racism is no way to fix it.

Unthankfully, that is how the democrats are continuously re-elected by playing the race card, and more of the sort...racisim will stop when the parties stop playing that card continuously...

Cyberpawz

I think this is a really interesting topic.  I mean, I'm looking at this topic and already I see people spanning the political spectrum from left to right agreeing on this...  It makes me wonder how much of the population in this country truly supports AA...

Only as many that actually get help from it.

But on the other aspect of that, for as many people as it "helps" it hurts so many more.

Cyberpawz

I sincerely empathize with your situation, Cyberpawz-- these are tough times for lots of Americans. And beyond the debate, you seem like most of the folks who check into this forum-- decent people just trying to make it.

On the other hand, I can match you story for story at various points in my career, where, according to the description posted, I was more than qualified for a position that went to a white male. In one organization the job was given to a white man who had just graduated from college and had no work experience at all. Two years later, when I finally did get into that organization, that same white male ended up being supervised by me.

The other unspoken and very ugly truth about all of this is that there are still too many people in America who refuse to conceive that there could ever be any instance in which a minority or a woman could be more qualified for a job than a white man. They will hide their true feelings in anti-AA rhetoric. But deep down their self esteem is anchored by a notion that white superiority is the natural order of things.

Of course, none of the folks who contribute to this forum are like that, right? But be assured: they're out there. They hire people. They teach people. They preach from pulpits. They sign off on loans and credit applications. They sit on admission committees. They carry badges. They hold public offices. And they vote.

It's amusing, how AA has breed racism instead of taking care of it...there is no such thing of reverse racism, or good racism, just racism.

If you didn't get a job for reasons beyond experience they are wrong, but that is the way things are now.  When I worked at BC, I was the only one who was hired that was born in the US, and could speak english without it sounding like it was nails or hammers going across the chalkboard. And I was hired not because of my experience, but because they had to fill a quota for the team...(one white guy)

Although I ran circles around them in experience, that is also what ended my contract, I made them feel insecure... *ehh* 

I was thinking of a way to make AA work, and still be fair... I might have to write it up first so I don't look like a fool, but I will put it here, once I get some sleep.

Cyberpawz

Where is YOUR evidence for this? What studies have been done to measure the rate of unqualified minorities gaining positions over whites?

Did you read your statement carefully before you posted it? Is there EVER a circumstance in which "the belief in white superiority" can be validated? Are you saying that the belief in white superiority is justifiable? 

What I'M saying is that there are white people in America and throughout the world who feel they ARE justified to believe in white superiority. It didn't take Affirmative Action to elicit such a notion. It has been the underpinning of the cultural, religious, and political policies practiced by Western Europeans for over 500 years.

I remain unconvinced of your position as well. Most of the complaints that are posted in this forum about the evils of AA are themselves simply anecdotal evidence. Cyberpawz presented his own anecdotal evidence, and I accept its credibility just as deeply as I hope he will accept mine. The only time I would challenge such a story is when I believe it needs to be examined more closely to determine if AA was truly the cause of a lost job opportunity or job displacement.

You and I don't need to do a head count to know that there are people in the US who believe that the white race stands far above all others-- and they don't need AA to convince them of that "reality." If you want more than anecdotal evidence on that, spend a few weeks tracking the number of hits recorded by fringe racist web sites such as those run by the NAAWP, Aryan Nation, and The Order.

The first step in solving the AA issue is to acknowledge that diversity is not important.

At my crappy school( UC berkeley), diversity is the issue. There is no other issue. Yet this campus is by far the least diverse place on the face of the planet. There's more diversity at senator byrd's 'klan meetings than at my school( and all other college's, no doubt).

In my engineering classes, there's students from many racial backgrounds, and not just the politically correct african-american, or hispanic, but the real deal, such as African, Asian, Arab, other, and South America. The funny thing is is that nobody gives a damn. We all interact in a friendly fashion, and get along quite well. Yet in by general ed. classes, all you see is a bunch of pathetic whine and cheese liberal democrats sitting around and bi.tching about the lack of diversity.

My father, a helicopter pilot in the army back in the late 70's, say that anyone truly interested in diversity would join the military( or major in engineering), where you get the largest cross-section of society gathered together. My dad is Mexican, and he said that in the army, nobody looked down on him. They were all considered equal, and got along just fine.

Where is YOUR evidence for this? What studies have been done to measure the rate of unqualified minorities gaining positions over whites?

There aren't any studies necessary because the very essence of Affirmative Action is the unjust and discriminatory "boosting" of minorities over white males. I don't think anyone's contending otherwise, liberal or conservative. The issue at hand is whether such programs are useful or even constitutional for that matter.

Did you read your statement carefully before you posted it? Is there EVER a circumstance in which "the belief in white superiority" can be validated? Are you saying that the belief in white superiority is justifiable?

My statement was impeccably worded. You simply misunderstood it. You said:

But deep down their self esteem is anchored by a notion that white superiority is the natural order of things.

To which I replied:

Unfortunately, Affirmative Action does nothing but validate the belief in white superiority by proving that minorities are unable to achieve without the assistance of an unjust governement program.

The key word here is "belief"; one which I do not share. What I'm simply pointing out is that AA does nothing but cause white supremicists to cling more strongly to their beliefs than ever. It creates divisiveness, not unity.

What I'M saying is that there are white people in America and throughout the world who feel they ARE justified to believe in white superiority. It didn't take Affirmative Action to elicit such a notion. It has been the underpinning of the cultural, religious, and political policies practiced by Western Europeans for over 500 years.

Affirmative Action does not elicit it, but it does strengthen the argument considerably and only assists in perpetuating the myth.

I remain unconvinced of your position as well. Most of the complaints that are posted in this forum about the evils of AA are themselves simply anecdotal evidence. Cyberpawz presented his own anecdotal evidence, and I accept its credibility just as deeply as I hope he will accept mine. The only time I would challenge such a story is when I believe it needs to be examined more closely to determine if AA was truly the cause of a lost job opportunity or job displacement.

Fair enough. I suppose it's possible that AA is not doing a lick of good and that admissions committees and employers are ignoring it completely. That would be a "Good Thing"

Funny thing about this debate, uncle Dick. You challenged me to provide something other than anecdotal evidence that show qualified black people were losing job opportunities to unqualified white people.  But when I asked you  to provide something other than anecdotal evidence that qualified white people were losing job opportunities to unqualified black people, it seems you've suddenly decided that it wasn't necessary.

At least you stated explicitly that you yourself don't believe in the notion of white superiority. But I'd still like to know why you think anyone is justified in believing that-- AA or not.   

My bottom line is this: I've said numerous times that AA would never had been necessary if organizations in the public and private sectors would have been more proactive on their own about eliminating discrimination in hiring, education, housing, public accomodations, etc. They weren't. Many of them still aren't. The list of discrimination lawsuits in just the last 10 years in which U.S. companies settled to avoid further prosecution reads like a Who's Who of the Fortune 500. 

I'll be happy to join to you in observing the end of AA as soon as something is put in its place that works better. Why don't suggest something? I'm listening.