Forums | MacLife

Mustapha Mond · 2005-02-27 6:14 pm

In this thread over yonder, everlong wrote the following:

everlong205 wrote:
Lets be honest. Much of liberal critiscism amounts to anti american sentiment (not all, but much). The whole Noam Chomsky school for example entire world view seems to rest on the idea that most of the worlds ills are due to the fault of America. A lot of the liberal argument is also based on socialism (not all, but a lot) which posits that its capitalism that is the great evil. These ARE anti american arguments. Why can't someone object to said characterizations and said arguments without being labelled a facist especially if the characterization is an accurate one?

[snip]

Libs arent above reproach. They, despite their belief do not live or argue from ivory towers. If the argument they pose is an antiamerican one, they can be attacked on it....

I found that to be a wholly ignorant idea of what liberals are about. And statements like that, and the ongoing lumping of the term "liberal" with the term "anti-American" demand that we address the issue of what it means to be a patriot, what this "pro-" or "anti-" Americanism is all about.

To me, America is an idea, an ideal, and a belief best summed up in the Declaration of Independence, which states that we all have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Words and actions that seek to hamper those rights are anti-American, and those that seek to further those rights are pro-American.

When I look back at the history of this country, I see actions that, though they were carried out by America, they were, to me, "anti-American" -- the holocausts of the American Indians and of the blacks who died for American slavery, for example. Those events violate the rights above, rights that belong to all people, and that are the heart of what this country is supposed to be about. To point to those incidents as a dark time in our history, and to warn the present and future generations of not repeating those mistakes, is not anti-American. Just the opposite.

We can look at our foreign policy and make similar judgments. To point to our involvement in other countries and say, "we did the wrong thing then" or "we're doing the wrong thing now" is not anti-American. If our country, our government, our military, are doing things that are contrary to the ideals that are the heart of what America is about, then we have an obligation to point it out, and if patriotism is defined as love and defense of one's country, what could be more patriotic than working, arguing, and fighting to stop one's country from betraying its ideals?

Capitalism is not American. Nor is socialism. Those are merely economic systems and it is what we do with them that matters. Consider, for example, the utopian future presented in Star Trek. On Earth, nobody uses money anymore, and progress and innovation occur not because the market demands competition, but because humans have embraced a philosophy of bettering themselves and all of mankind for its own sake. Not very capitalistic, yet what could be more American than the freedom and opportunity to pursue your happiness to the fullest extent while simultaneously bettering the lives of everyone around you? Of course, that world survives on a technological fiction (the replicator, which turns generic matter into whatever it is somebody needs, so nobody ever wants, so there's not much to drive a capitalist system). Until we reach that point, capitalism seems to be the economic system that best supports our ideals of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But don't be surprised, and don't call it anti-American, if it gets replaced someday.

Right now, as a liberal, I feel besieged by the right's mindless patriotism and I think it's time to challenge their idea of love of country. Do they really find no fault with some of what America is doing today? What about with past actions? Is there really a direct equation between criticizing the man who is our president and criticizing our country and what it stands for as a whole? What do they think it is that makes America great? Are we simply a great nation because God said so? Is our greatness simply inherent and inviolable regardless of what we do and simply because it is we who do it? From my side of the aisle, that often seems to be the right's idea of patriotism. America can do no wrong, our leaders are not to be questioned, our actions are not to be criticized, and anyone who disagrees is anti-American. Yet I can't think of anything more un-American than to sit quietly by while my country engages in any action that undermines the very things that make this country so great.

NAG · 2005-02-27 6:35 pm

It is generally difficult to see with your head in the clouds.

Last edited by NAG (2005-02-27 6:36 pm)

obtuse · 2005-02-27 6:37 pm

NAG wrote:
It is generally difficult to see with your head in the clouds.

clouds?

resedit · 2005-02-27 6:42 pm

obtuse wrote:
NAG wrote:
It is generally difficult to see with your head in the clouds.
clouds?

Must be the new filter - Donkey or Burro would have been better.

bedstuy · 2005-02-27 6:53 pm

Baby killers!

Mustapha Mond · 2005-02-27 7:50 pm

Is there a comment or criticism here? Can someone please elaborate?

obtuse · 2005-02-27 7:59 pm

Mustapha Mond wrote:
Is there a comment or criticism here? Can someone please elaborate?

No comments yet, just sniping.

More on topic, are there any on the left using eliminationist rhetoric? The good old standby Moore called for (depending on how exactly you read hiw points) tightening of gun laws, but nothing resembling wanting to remove conservatives from the landscape (except possibly by persuasion). I guess if I listen to the anarchists they'd say something like that.

Mustapha Mond · 2005-02-27 8:05 pm

obtuse wrote:
Mustapha Mond wrote:
Is there a comment or criticism here? Can someone please elaborate?
No comments yet, just sniping.

More on topic, are there any on the left using eliminationist rhetoric? The good old standby Moore called for (depending on how exactly you read hiw points) tightening of gun laws, but nothing resembling wanting to remove conservatives from the landscape (except possibly by persuasion). I guess if I listen to the anarchists they'd say something like that.

I'm sure you could find someone saying something to that effect. But I doubt it would be anyone representing mainstream liberal ideals. Not that that matters. It seems the righties around here never learned a thing about modern liberals beyond the worst and most mindless stereotypes available.

wellfleation · 2005-02-27 8:18 pm

The right winged bush squad have mastered connecting the word liberal with anyone that objects to their half ass policies and the direction they are taking this country. They have also used organizations such as the Swift Boat Jerky's to plant seeds. Even if you are a Republican and you disagree with the president (the SS issue, for example) your credentials/beliefs are attacked. If you disagree with bush, right winged groups, including TV networks such as Fox, paint that a person as a unpatriotic liberal. A certain percentage of easily influenced people then nod their heads like they never had an original thought in their empty minded heads. Sad really, but all you can do is fight for what you know is right and try to educate people to what's really going.

An example is that certain people on this board have at times painted me as a liberal because I often disagree with bush and think he's a puppet. This is even though I'm a registered independent who is a centrist who believes in the death penalty, believe in fiscal responsibility, believe that the government should stay out of my life when at all possible, and I could go on and on. The funny thing I've noticed is that many so called conservatives support bush blindly even though he has spent like a drunken sailor and has expanded the government into our lives. In fact, many conservs who post here tend to want the government in peoples lives more; this is amusing as being a conservative has changed drastically over the past ten years.

bedstuy · 2005-02-27 11:22 pm

No, they're just dittoheads

Steyr AUG · 2005-02-27 11:24 pm

Mustapha Mond wrote:
obtuse wrote:
Mustapha Mond wrote:
Is there a comment or criticism here? Can someone please elaborate?
No comments yet, just sniping.

More on topic, are there any on the left using eliminationist rhetoric? The good old standby Moore called for (depending on how exactly you read hiw points) tightening of gun laws, but nothing resembling wanting to remove conservatives from the landscape (except possibly by persuasion). I guess if I listen to the anarchists they'd say something like that.
I'm sure you could find someone saying something to that effect. But I doubt it would be anyone representing mainstream liberal ideals. Not that that matters. It seems the righties around here never learned a thing about modern liberals beyond the worst and most mindless stereotypes available.

What do you think America has ever done right?

bratboy · 2005-02-27 11:26 pm

Mustapha Mond wrote:
I found that to be a wholly ignorant idea of what liberals are about.

Are you suprised?

Everlong considers himself to be an expert on what liberals believe. You'll never convince him otherwise....or you'll simply be labeled as "one of those rare, OTHER liberals."

shrug

ShnickyShnack · 2005-02-28 12:59 am

Steyr AUG wrote:
Mustapha Mond wrote:
obtuse wrote:

No comments yet, just sniping.

More on topic, are there any on the left using eliminationist rhetoric? The good old standby Moore called for (depending on how exactly you read hiw points) tightening of gun laws, but nothing resembling wanting to remove conservatives from the landscape (except possibly by persuasion). I guess if I listen to the anarchists they'd say something like that.
I'm sure you could find someone saying something to that effect. But I doubt it would be anyone representing mainstream liberal ideals. Not that that matters. It seems the righties around here never learned a thing about modern liberals beyond the worst and most mindless stereotypes available.
What do you think America has ever done right?

Oh, good Lord. Did he really just ask that?

Farmerkev · 2005-02-28 2:56 am

bratboy wrote:
Mustapha Mond wrote:
I found that to be a wholly ignorant idea of what liberals are about.
Are you suprised?

Everlong considers himself to be an expert on what liberals believe. You'll never convince him otherwise....or you'll simply be labeled as "one of those rare, OTHER liberals."

Sorta like how I've been labeled one of those rare other conservatives isn't it.

KingFred · 2005-02-28 5:53 am

On THIS board, yes kev, you are "special". Out in the real world, not so much. But in here, you're the shining beacon of what is possible: A (generally) level-headed conservative with a sense of humor that works.

Last edited by KingFred (2005-02-28 5:56 am)

Camp David · 2005-02-28 6:56 am

Steyr AUG wrote:
What do you think America has ever done right?

Just leave... pack your pags and luggage and leave... if you feel this way. Don't let us folks that happen to think America is a beacon on the hill of freedom, a shining light of democracy slow you down.... you'd fit right well into perhaps our European brethen who question our policies, castigate our leaders, and ridicule our actions... just leave... we don't want you...

Hundreds of thousands died so that America could be an example for the world; you, however, as representative of the moonbat liberal leftist squad question whether we've "ever done right?". Just leave... don't leave a forwarding address... ungreatfulness is your tokn in life. Don't let the gate of democracy hit your butt on the way out. Just leave.

But if you can appreciate the quality of life America extends to all, for all our difficulties, we try to be the best... we open our arms to all. Please stay... and be an American.

Camp David

Last edited by Camp David (2005-02-28 6:58 am)

Onthebeach · 2005-02-28 7:15 am

Camp David wrote:
Steyr AUG wrote:
What do you think America has ever done right?
Just leave... pack your pags and luggage and leave... if you feel this way.

You're really outdoing yourself. First resedit and now Steyr AUG. That knee of yours is uncontrollable.

nstehle · 2005-02-28 7:17 am

Onthebeach wrote:
Camp David wrote:
Steyr AUG wrote:
What do you think America has ever done right?
Just leave... pack your pags and luggage and leave... if you feel this way.
You're really outdoing yourself. First resedit and now Steyr AUG. That knee of yours is uncontrollable.

I think the left is tired of hearing this because they know there's an element of truth to it.

Onthebeach · 2005-02-28 7:24 am

nstehle wrote:
Onthebeach wrote:
Camp David wrote:

Just leave... pack your pags and luggage and leave... if you feel this way.
You're really outdoing yourself. First resedit and now Steyr AUG. That knee of yours is uncontrollable.
I think the left is tired of hearing this because they know there's an element of truth to it.

An element of truth to what? confused

The New Guy · 2005-02-28 8:40 am

See Sig.

Sternum · 2005-02-28 8:52 am

Camp David wrote:
Steyr AUG wrote:
What do you think America has ever done right?
Just leave... pack your pags and luggage and leave... if you feel this way. Don't let us folks that happen to think America is a beacon on the hill of freedom, a shining light of democracy slow you down.... you'd fit right well into perhaps our European brethen who question our policies, castigate our leaders, and ridicule our actions... just leave... we don't want you.

And don't let the door hit you on the way out, Commie!

Pundit Guy · 2005-02-28 9:12 am

Camp David wrote:
Just leave... pack your pags and luggage and leave... if you feel this way. Don't let us folks that happen to think America is a beacon on the hill of freedom, a shining light of democracy slow you down.... you'd fit right well into perhaps our European brethen who question our policies, castigate our leaders, and ridicule our actions... just leave... we don't want you...

It is a fundamental American right to question our government's policies. You apparently don't believe in that right. You are anti-american.

Seriously. We're a beacon on the hill of freedom, but get out if you contradict us? How do you reconcile those thoughts?

Mustapha Mond · 2005-02-28 9:26 am

Pundit Guy wrote:
Camp David wrote:
Just leave... pack your pags and luggage and leave... if you feel this way. Don't let us folks that happen to think America is a beacon on the hill of freedom, a shining light of democracy slow you down.... you'd fit right well into perhaps our European brethen who question our policies, castigate our leaders, and ridicule our actions... just leave... we don't want you...
It is a fundamental American right to question our government's policies. You apparently don't believe in that right. You are anti-american.

Seriously. We're a beacon on the hill of freedom, but get out if you contradict us? How do you reconcile those thoughts?

The same way he reconciles lumping steyr in with us moonbat leftists.

Last edited by Mustapha Mond (2005-02-28 9:27 am)

Camp David · 2005-02-28 9:30 am

Pundit Guy wrote:
Camp David wrote:
Just leave... pack your pags and luggage and leave... if you feel this way. Don't let us folks that happen to think America is a beacon on the hill of freedom, a shining light of democracy slow you down.... you'd fit right well into perhaps our European brethen who question our policies, castigate our leaders, and ridicule our actions... just leave... we don't want you...
It is a fundamental American right to question our government's policies. You apparently don't believe in that right. You are anti-american.

Seriously. We're a beacon on the hill of freedom, but get out if you contradict us? How do you reconcile those thoughts?

Since you seriously questioned what I wrote I'll elaborate...

You are right: "It is a fundamental American right to question our government's policies." While I firmly support that right, the right does comes with responsibilities along the lines of respect. "Freedom to question" is not alloted, shall I say, 'carpe diem', or a 'seize the day' right where someone can question everything without being reminded that freedom is a two-way door where no holds are placed on Americans.

I accept wholesome criticism of this nation, as all Americans should. I think it necessary, however, to remind those doing the criticizing that the door to liberty is open for departure; there are far too many "anti-americans" ringing bells of doom and no near enough greatful citizens acknowledging the plain facts that, as Ben Franklin observed," Here sir, the people govern." The people also know that here is better than there... and perhaps those that contradict, criticize, and question should be more open to critical evaluation of their intent.

You see, Pundit Guy, I reconcile freedom as a responsibility to cherish; Americans should default to the betterment of society rather than its belittlement.

Camp David

The New Guy · 2005-02-28 9:38 am

And what about most of the developed world recognizing human rights? Are England or Canada or France any less free than the US? America doesn't have the "Magic Liberty Rocks."

And, by the way, I am leaving. Summer of 2007. big_smile

Forums | MacLife

#1 2005-02-27 6:14 pm

Anti-Americanism

everlong205 wrote:

#2 2005-02-27 6:35 pm

Re: Anti-Americanism

#3 2005-02-27 6:37 pm

Re: Anti-Americanism

NAG wrote:

#4 2005-02-27 6:42 pm

Re: Anti-Americanism

obtuse wrote:

NAG wrote:

#5 2005-02-27 6:53 pm

Re: Anti-Americanism

#6 2005-02-27 7:50 pm

Re: Anti-Americanism

#7 2005-02-27 7:59 pm

Re: Anti-Americanism

Mustapha Mond wrote:

#8 2005-02-27 8:05 pm

Re: Anti-Americanism

obtuse wrote:

Mustapha Mond wrote:

#9 2005-02-27 8:18 pm

Re: Anti-Americanism

#10 2005-02-27 11:22 pm

Re: Anti-Americanism

#11 2005-02-27 11:24 pm

Re: Anti-Americanism

Mustapha Mond wrote:

obtuse wrote:

Mustapha Mond wrote:

#12 2005-02-27 11:26 pm

Re: Anti-Americanism

Mustapha Mond wrote:

#13 2005-02-28 12:59 am

Re: Anti-Americanism

Steyr AUG wrote:

Mustapha Mond wrote:

obtuse wrote:

#14 2005-02-28 2:56 am

Re: Anti-Americanism

bratboy wrote:

Mustapha Mond wrote:

#15 2005-02-28 5:53 am

Re: Anti-Americanism

#16 2005-02-28 6:56 am

Re: Anti-Americanism

Steyr AUG wrote:

#17 2005-02-28 7:15 am

Re: Anti-Americanism

Camp David wrote:

Steyr AUG wrote:

#18 2005-02-28 7:17 am

Re: Anti-Americanism

Onthebeach wrote:

Camp David wrote:

Steyr AUG wrote:

#19 2005-02-28 7:24 am

Re: Anti-Americanism

nstehle wrote:

Onthebeach wrote:

Camp David wrote:

#20 2005-02-28 8:40 am

Re: Anti-Americanism

#21 2005-02-28 8:52 am

Re: Anti-Americanism

Camp David wrote:

Steyr AUG wrote:

#22 2005-02-28 9:12 am

Re: Anti-Americanism

Camp David wrote:

#23 2005-02-28 9:26 am

Re: Anti-Americanism

Pundit Guy wrote:

Camp David wrote:

#24 2005-02-28 9:30 am

Re: Anti-Americanism

Pundit Guy wrote: