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It could also save AMD.   Some windows people would build their own PC's, put Linux on the machine and whammo -- MacAddicts say, "why didn't you get a Mac ?"  Other people would indeed switch directly.

You have to upgrade because of your liscence aggreement?  What the fuck are you smoking.

You have to upgrade because of your liscence aggreement?  What the fuck are you smoking.

Follow the link and read some of it. It's crazy. Since you have XP, and Microsoft has the ability to criple the function of XP, if you don't upgrade, they'll disable your XP.

Imagine the RIAA's big smile when nobody can trade their mp3's or share them with others. That will totally suck. And if Paladium follows through on its promise of security and the end of piracy, then maybe the RIAA will criple the use of mp3's on Macs if we don't follow along as well. Scary stuff.

I for one, and not going to let somebody tell me what I can have on my computer, and what I can't. I'll still use Windows 2000 for my pc and Jaguar for my Mac.

thugmoni

This is all speculation and I sincerely hope that non of this actually happens. But it is not impossible and we need to face the reality that anything non-MS may be seriously threatened by this new Palladium stuff. Keep all of your current hardware and software, kids... it may be the last non-Palladium equipment you will ever have.

Ok, maybe that last line is a little too extreme... but hey, who knows... it will be interesting to see how this all pans out in the coming year.

There's something we can do about it.  We can start spreading the word and bitching about how aweful palladium is.  It won't take very much to sway anyone into thinking it sucks... because it does.

Only home users will 'suffer', and I'm not sure that it'll be that bad.

Yes it is suffering.  Have you read what they intend to do.  They not only want the software stuff, they want to control all our passwords, credit card numbers, etc.  It's ridiculous.  I for one don't trust Microsoft with my life, and no one should.  This has to be stopped.  It's outrageous.  It fits into their little master plan to rule everything that start with .NET and XP and Password and knowing everything you're doing on you're computer at any time.  They'll say its to protect from piracy and hackers.... but in reality they're just facilitating their own hacker-like actions.

Another interesting article, straight from the MS website: http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/feat … ladium.asp

According to the general manager of the Windows business unit that is building Palladium, this thing is targeted almost entirely at businesses concerned with security and privacy.

He also indicates that upgrading to Palladium will not be mandatory for all Windows XP users, contrary to the rumors that the Windows XP license agreement would allow MS to require anyone to upgrade or render their system useless.

Ok.. so I'm a little less paranoid now...

I think the thing we ought to be most concerned about is Palladium (or rather the standard that it represents) being made an actual part of every chip that's made. Intel chips first. Businesses buy intel, that's fine, but let's say a business decides that to keep their systems secure, if you want to buy stuff off their website, you need a palladium computer. Not a problem for most folks who's Wintel machines have Palladium in there, since they occupy a mass of the market, when us Mac Users, or the Linux folk, or the Amiga guys float on over, we simply get a message "Sorry you must be runnning a secure Palladium computer to purchase from this website"

What happens when corporate America takes this concept? Either Apple will adopt a compatible tech into their chip, or we'll be pushed off the bed so to speak.

Either way it's dangerous. The plan as I understand it is to start it out as a chip separate on the Motherboard, but to later actually implement it as part of the CPU

I think that you are way off if Palladium doesnt scare the skin off your bones.  If it becomes the standard we lose alot and the Windows users lose much much more.  There is a thread about Palladium on slashdot, its truly scary.  Here is an excerpt:

                                So sure, Microsoft is pushing Palladium. It can be everything to everyone. Don't forget that you can use DRM goes both ways. If you create something for free distribution with DRM, you can ensure that no one can use it for commercial purposes. DRM is a weapon of choice - you can oppress, or you can set free.

This is the worst kind of apologist propaganda imaginable. TCPA and Palladium serve one purpose and one purpose only: taking away the root control of our own machines from us. It is that simple, and it is indeed true that once our freedom of informational self determination has been taking from us, there are many applications, good and evil, for those to whoom we grant it: that is the nature of having power over people. You are absolutely right that this power can be used in fair ways, just like any power over us, but once we have given up control of our computers this is no longer for us to decide. If we accept hardware DRM, we are giving up all our freedoms on the promise that if we are nice they'll give most back. Such power is evil in and of itself, regardless of whether it is used for evil or not.

Defending user hostile computers on the grounds that they can be used for fair applications is like defending totalitarian regimes because they can stop crime and corruption. Both statements are true - a totalitarian regime can indeed protect us in a way an open society cannot, and many intellectually honest thinkers have argued that it is necessary and preferable (Plato, Hobbes, Marx etc.) But history has shown us again and again that open societies prosper, where as those that wish to concentrate power, no matter how convincing the utilitarian argument, lead us down a path of insanity and darkness.
   

As I understand it with Palladium in place M$ essentially controls your computer. They decide which programs can be installed, which files can be modified, which drivers can be installed, etc...  An example cited was that if anyone comes up with a product they dont like, the example was of a video card that hard better drivers for OpenGL than DirectX, they could refuse to sign off on the drivers and the video card would not work in your computer because the drivers could not be installed.  It appears to give them much more power to do all of the lovely extortion like things they do now.  Only with Palladium they dont have to threaten, they can just cut you off at the knees.  Ya, sounds real harmless.

God. I'm depressed now. And the government doesn't even care about this stuff. They don't give a rats. That's what pisses me off the most. We added "homeland security". We need a whole new department to handle the tech industry. Standards (open) must be put into place.

This makes me hate Microsoft more and more.

thugmoni

True. The last thing they need is another monopoly. And the last thing we need is the government not stopping them.

If palladium is to fulfill its purpose, it or some descendant of it will be put into legislation, undoubtedly lobbied for by Microsoft and the RIAA, DMCA and crap in-hand. It's not going to be a matter of MS pushing it on people and leaving other avenues wide open. We all know that would be dumb, and you don't become and stay megarich by being stupid.

This act is just another link in a very long chain of making anything and everything illegal, thus allowing the powers that be to control us in any way they see fit. It's been going on ever since America changed (rather quietly) from a Republic to a Democracy. Here we still pledge alliegiance to the flag and to the REPUBLIC for which it stands, while we live under this Democratic slavery. The Republic is bankrupt, its governmental offices sitting vacant, and its people almost entirely lost to the Federal United States, a corporation instituted long ago, but controlled by the sovereign United States Citizens, or usC. The Average American today is a USc.

Our modern government is an agent of banks, of which the Federal Reserve Bank is a branch, like your local TCF Bank branch office at Cub Foods. Other nations are being made to suffer like this as well. The evidence of this travesty is in your hands on nearly a daily basis - federal reserve nots. Our money is gone, and we pass notes of debt around. This new "government"  seeks control, no matter how benevolent it appears.

All of the tactics described in 1984 are being used, basically. Controlling our computers is only part of the whole picture, but a part none the less.

You can also count on every single PC hacker in every IRC channel will be cooperatively working on cracking Palladium the second it's released.

Nice. I'd bet the combined efforts of a couple good hackers will have more influence than the government any day.

Of course, we can't call it "Palladium" any more. MS has changed the name to "next-generation secure computing base" (see this).

This could be because the name "Palladium" was claimed by another company with a pre-existing trademark (some guy at Slashdot said his hard drive was a Palladium model, that's probably it).

Or it could be that MS were happy to change the name because it's harder to fight a "next-generation secure computing base". It's a blurry definition, and the name makes it sound good - after all, security is good, next generation stuff is good, so this is good too, right?

As for the Human element being the weakest link - I'd argue that over the past ten years that was not the case. You can fool a Human, true, but when so many security holes were left open "out of the box", I'd say that a lot of hackers didn't even need to talk to a Human to get behind the security.

It's a good thing to improve computer security regardless of what the weakest link actually is. Human procedures can be improved at low cost, but improving computer security always costs a lot.

HackerJax - I was probably going a bit too far with my "crippled" statement, but the idea that development is stale is, I believe, true. Fresh ideas aren't coming when we're locked into Windows, or even the MacOS. Neither is allowing revolution of interface, only a slow evolution (and that's arguable too).

SirCastor - a business can only force consumers to use Palladium if it really believes that the vast majority are already doing that. Otherwise their Internet sales will dry up. I would imagine that they'd offer a preferred channel for Palladium users, and a secondary ('less' secure, using strong encryption) channel for non-Palladium users. I really can't see any business throwing away customers.

HackerJax - I was probably going a bit too far with my "crippled" statement, but the idea that development is stale is, I believe, true. Fresh ideas aren't coming when we're locked into Windows, or even the MacOS. Neither is allowing revolution of interface, only a slow evolution (and that's arguable too).

I can agree with that.

I think in general personal computers have hit a sort of wall. We've taken GUI designs pretty far but things are kind of at a standstill. We are searching for that next great leap and it isn't happening. OS companies are not pushing the envelope like they used to do. Operating Systems are becoming a commodity most companies are not looking for the next great interface. Most of them are looking at the long term prospect of their systems becoming an integral part of society much like the phone system has become.

I expect both MS and Apple to start moving in other directions as time goes on. Apple made a hit with the iPod, MS is dumping money on things like the xBox. They are both to a degree slacking off on what started the whole computer revolution.

Ideas and innovation can't be stopped though. The time will come when someone releases the next big thing and it won't matter what kind of monopoly or control a company has cause things will change.

Xerox never saw the GUI for what it was.
IBM never saw the OS coming period.
Digital never saw past its own stupidity.
Sun never saw Linux coming.

Apple didn't see Microsoft  and there is something coming that Microsoft won't see. Its just a matter of time.

Maybe the day is coming when a couple of guys in a garage somewhere unleash something that redefines everything that is currently in use.

Its happened before.

-=Jax=-