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#26 2003-01-24 4:33 pm
- Mustapha Mond
- Up your alley

- Registered: 2001-03-24
- Posts: 6736
- Website
Re: Quality Liberalism
I think the fact alone that he is a dictator does not justify us attacking him, unless we are now adopting the unbending position of removing all dictators everywhere and refusing to support any of them any more. And we certainly can't use that as a moral argument when we have supported him in the past and support others right now.
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#27 2003-01-24 4:36 pm
- Jehannum
- Banned
- From: Albuquerque
- Registered: 1999-07-24
- Posts: 8404
Re: Quality Liberalism
OK, taken as a given that the US couldn't possibly have moral authority to stand on (even though I sincerely disagree with you on that point), is a destabilizing regime that actively supports terrorism something that the US can afford to ignore?
Even taken out of the equation that the middle east is, at best, slightly unstable politically, you still have Saddam actively paying out to the families of suicide bombers and probably building WMDs using tools (possibly) purchased from France and Germany.
"Goodness he just keeps going and going. He's like the energizer bunny of stupid." - Neut
Your powers are useless! I'm wearing my tin-foil underwear!
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#28 2003-01-24 5:39 pm
- Mustapha Mond
- Up your alley

- Registered: 2001-03-24
- Posts: 6736
- Website
Re: Quality Liberalism
If Iraq is so dangerous on those counts, why have we ignored them for more than a decade? Also, on those counts, Iraq isn't much different from its neighbors.
I'm going by memory here, so I could be wrong on a few of these points, but I'm pretty sure that Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Egypt have significant ties to assorted terrorist groups -- more than just Palestinian suicide bombers -- and I'm pretty sure that most of the ME, with the probable exception of Israel, has said that they don't think Iraq is destabilizing.
It's hard to believe that all of the countries over there aren't trying to build WMDs -- Pakistan has got 'em (and that's the first place we thought bin Laden was going to run to), as does India, I'm pretty sure Iran is known to be pursuing them, I'm not sure about Egypt, but they're on the list of countries we sell weapons to, so it's possible they've been "permitted" to build them, and if Saudi Arabia isn't, that's probably only because we're such good friends with them (who needs a nuke when you've got the US? -- and throw Kuwait in this pile too).
Look at all of the ME, and Iraq just doesn't seem that exceptional.
Over the last 20-30 years or so, Iraq hasn't done anything significant other than invade Kuwait, which we promptly put an end to, and I don't see much reason to believe he'd try it again. The only obvious change that resulted from that is that Iraq went from ally to enemy and we clamped some major santcions on them, which Saddam then used to harm his people with while blaming us for it. So Saddam is a very vocal enemy of the US -- and one has to wonder what the hell we were trying to do with those sanctions -- but as it is we're not exactly loved over there anyway.
So I guess I'm answering your question with a question: Why Iraq and why now?
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#29 2003-01-24 6:05 pm
Re: Quality Liberalism
OK, taken as a given that the US couldn't possibly have moral authority to stand on (even though I sincerely disagree with you on that point), is a destabilizing regime that actively supports terrorism something that the US can afford to ignore?
Even taken out of the equation that the middle east is, at best, slightly unstable politically, you still have Saddam actively paying out to the families of suicide bombers and probably building WMDs using tools (possibly) purchased from France and Germany.
Sorry, the fact that he's "probably" building WMD does not give the U.S. the go-ahead to invade. And just to clear things up, Tony Blair has said that they are no links between Saddam and al-Qaeda.
I think there are much more pressing concerns in the world. If you're concerned about Nuclear Proliferation, look at North Korea. North Korea's nuclear arsenal is a much bigger problem than Iraq's mainly chemical and biological warfare programs. But there's something that Iraq has than N.K. doesn't, isn't there?
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#30 2003-01-27 3:19 am
- bratboy
- attorney-at-law
- Royal Wombat

- From: Austin, Texas
- Registered: 2003-01-19
- Posts: 30529
Re: Quality Liberalism
...and you can be a 'liberal' and not a Democrat.
In many cases, I find the Democratic party the lesser of the two evils. However, I find it terribly obvious that the two parties absolutely agree on one point: Getting re-elected.
Besides that, they're more interested in arguing against ANYTHING that the other side has to say instead of thinking rationally about the situation. Giving the knee-jerk 'party line' is so much easier.
It's bad enough that politicians will do it, but it's rather distressing to me to see young people doing the same thing: subsituting party-speak for real opinion...sometimes to a ridiculous degree.
"One thing we've learned is there's a difference between being disappointed and having madmen in authority."
--Paul Krugman
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#31 2003-01-29 12:07 pm
Re: Quality Liberalism
I find it amusing that from 1900 - 1964 the GOP was considered the "isolationist" party. But since Goldwater loyalists seized power at the national convention that year, the roles have been reversed.
I think it's appalling for anyone to try reducing something as irrevocable as waging war to a politically or ideoligically partisan issue. I also think that there are a lot of donkeys as well as elephants, liberals as well as conservatives, who think we should move very deliberately on the matter of a war against Iraq.
Why IS Bush so hell-bent on it, anyway? Does he have proof that Osama Bin Laden is hiding out there, or something?
Hi Folks!
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