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#1 2005-03-25 7:09 pm
- ironhawk
- Shai Dorsai!
- From: San Francisco
- Registered: 2001-10-16
- Posts: 3080
Son Of Frankintosh!!
First, let me apologize to NightCougar and the others who were looking forward to me modding out the old PowerTower. A better idea came along, and everything has just seemed to fall in place so nicely for accomplishing it.
I have all the pieces I now need to build my G4.
I am using:
my orginal G4 Mystic logic board and power supply
867mhz /2mbL3 G4 daughtercard ( from a Quicksilver, traded for my 800mhz G4 Crescendo )
G3 B&W metal chasis ( to replace my modded G4 metal innards )
G4 Mystic case plastics
Sonnet ATA133 PCI card
Sonnet USB/Firewire card
AGP radeon7200 w/ ADC ( if I can resurrect it )
AGP Rage128 w/ADC ( if I can't ressurect the Radeon )
and a shiny Formac 17" LCD wide ADC display ( a Pixar selloff I picked up for $150! )
Photos will be up tonight or tomorrow, along with more step-by-step details. Until then, I've already had some success running the 867mhz card at full speed in my Mystic, by adding 12volts to the card and clocking my bus to 133mhz. Otherwise, it will run natively at 650mhz on a 100mhz bus ( 6.5:1 ratio ), and can be upclocked from there. How high, I'm not sure, but it's easier and safer, I think to upclock the bus, which requires only a simple resistor removal.
If I find the machine is stable at 867mhz, I may try to squeeze 931mhz out of it ( 7:1 ratio )
For those who would be so hard up over the entire timebase /data-corruption issue of running the bus at 133mhz, I say it's well over-done. That's old news. Michiro Isobe created an Open Firmware script which resolves the issue, and if you're running OS 10.2 or later, you won't have an issue to begin with.
Anyhow, I'm glad I waited to announce anything or take photos, as my work until now was done in the orignal machine, just to see if it all works. Things will be more solid as I rebuild and swap things into the new chasis. I also need a fresh install of the OS. Somehow, Fedex managed to cause some data corruption on my hard drive during the move to SF. Don't ask how, 'cause I haven't any clue.
Anyhow, details forthcoming, to include XBench tests to compare to the old setup.
Last edited by ironhawk (2005-03-25 7:10 pm)
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#2 2005-03-25 9:19 pm
- Orion
- Bovi-sapiens
- From: America's Dairyland
- Registered: 2000-09-12
- Posts: 2980
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
Sounds like it is going to be sweet! Keep us updated... 
Farming is easy when your plow is a pencil and you are a thousand miles from the cornfield. -Dwight D. Eisenhower
Don't curse the farmer with your mouth full.
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#3 2005-03-26 4:17 am
- NightCougar_37
- PARTY CALL!!!
- From: The bridge of my Akira Class
- Registered: 2001-07-22
- Posts: 9273
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
So this is what you've been up to 
. Sounds nice so far, keep us informed!
Might be able to get an OEM R9000 off ebay for cheap at times. Those old Rage 128s sure do blow.
Not surprised by the data corruption, i've known quite a few Fedex employees mention how packages are handled. Most from different states but all of them had the same stories to tell.
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#4 2005-03-26 4:07 pm
- ironhawk
- Shai Dorsai!
- From: San Francisco
- Registered: 2001-10-16
- Posts: 3080
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
Well, I'm happy to say everything is rebuilt an in the new case, and is working fine.
I'm sad to say, the Formac monitor won't wake from sleep
I vaguely remember the Formacs needing drivers of some sort, tho...
if not, I can exchange it.
I'm going to move ahead with the bus overclock ( in the new setup ).
If I find it isn't stable, I'll clock the processor as high as it will safely go on the 100mhz bus.
For grins, I went ahead and ran XBench at the 650/100 setting...
to find that a 7450 at 650mhz with 2mb of L2 cache is nearly twice as fast as my old 7400 at 500mhz. We're talking a cpu score in the fifties to a scor in the nineties.
FPU scores were similar tho.
I've been taking lots of pictures, so there'll be plenty to look at
And, yeah the Rage128 does suck. The Radeon is still dead in the water. I may try flashing the ROM, because I think it's a firmware issue, but I'm buying a new card in about two weeks, anyhow. Maybe an 8500, or a GForce 4.
Oh, and to correct myself, you must remove TWO resistors to upclock the bus in the Mystic and Sawtooth... R434 and R435, on the back of the logic board, below the RAM slots.
Last edited by ironhawk (2005-03-26 4:13 pm)
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#5 2005-03-26 4:16 pm
- ironhawk
- Shai Dorsai!
- From: San Francisco
- Registered: 2001-10-16
- Posts: 3080
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
BTW, it's nice to have a standard expansion bay chasis again...
And, I wasn't sure my Mystic's orignal heatsink would work with the QS's CPU ( it required some modification to fit ), but it does, and well, so far.
I currently have a fan on it, but in order to keep the fan, I'd once again have to cut into the expansion bay... or... I could mount the fan on the side, instead of the top. That would still pull heat away, and enable me to close the case!
Ah-Ha!
BTW: I have found the PLL configurations for the card. I think it would be pretty safe to run the chip at 933, with my current heatsink. Folks have managed to run it at 1Ghz, but I think that may be pushing it, until I find a better way to cool things.
I may add a second fan, having one the the left side to pull air over the heatsink, and one on the right to pull it away.
Last edited by ironhawk (2005-03-26 4:29 pm)
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#6 2005-03-26 4:40 pm
- NightCougar_37
- PARTY CALL!!!
- From: The bridge of my Akira Class
- Registered: 2001-07-22
- Posts: 9273
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
Looks good. I know theres a bunch of ppl that have been trying to clock the Cube's bus to 133. I've been wondering about it myself but I wasn't about to fry my Cube attempting it. Maybe if I get another Cube then I would consider it .
I've seen a few GF4 Tis around going for $100-$200. Then theres been some 4MX models selling for under $100. The R8500s would be nice but their prices have gone up a bit. Probably part due to Cube Owners who get more daring to try the VRM move and they want the fastest GPU they can get 
.
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#7 2005-03-26 5:04 pm
- ironhawk
- Shai Dorsai!
- From: San Francisco
- Registered: 2001-10-16
- Posts: 3080
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
NightCougar_37 wrote:
Looks good. I know theres a bunch of ppl that have been trying to clock the Cube's bus to 133. I've been wondering about it myself but I wasn't about to fry my Cube attempting it. Maybe if I get another Cube then I would consider it
I've seen a few GF4 Tis around going for $100-$200. Then theres been some 4MX models selling for under $100. The R8500s would be nice but their prices have gone up a bit. Probably part due to Cube Owners who get more daring to try the VRM move and they want the fastest GPU they can get
I just found out my "new" Formac requires 32mb of DDR VRAM, which may be why it's misbehaving, in addition to the fact that, supposedly, there's an additional power supply connection on the ADC connector ( meaning, apparently, the ADC's power isn't enough ).
I'm betting the needed power is why it only sleeps when I plug it in.
I'll need to find out how much additional power it requires. Funny, I know it requires the addtiional power, from Formac's own specification, but I didn't notice anything different about the cable or connector, while first glancing at it, but it wouldn't be the first time I've missed something like that, either.
Or, considering where this thing came from, it could be a custom build, connected to a custom-manufactured graphics card.
If so, I'll have to find a way to supply the additonal power. Maybe USB? It has a built-in two port hub. Bus power from the Mac might do it.
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#8 2005-03-27 3:55 pm
- ironhawk
- Shai Dorsai!
- From: San Francisco
- Registered: 2001-10-16
- Posts: 3080
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
Time For Benchmarks!!
Using XBench in OS 10.2.8, bigger numbers mean higher scores, mean mo' better.
Scores are listed in order of processor type and speed, to include XBench's own baseline, for additional comparison.
500mhz 7400 (max), 1mb L2, 100mhz bus
CPU Test: 52.15
GCD Loop: 37.33, 1.4 Mops/sec
Floating Point Basic: 74.40, 269.07 Mflops/sec
Altivec Basic: 41.10, 1.19 Gflops/sec
vecLib FFT: 55.72, 865.09 Mflops/sec
Floating Point Library: 74.82, 3.00 Mops/sec
650mhz 7450 (v'ger), 256k L2, 1mb DDR L3, 100mhz bus
CPU Test: 77.08
GCD Loop: 70.54, 2.75 Mops/sec
Floating Point Basic: 80.27, 290.29 Mflops/sec
Altivec Basic: 78.98, 2.29 Gflops/sec
vecLib FFT: 78.32, 1.22 Gflops/sec
Floating Point Library: 78.13, Mops/sec
XBench Baseline: Dual 800mhz 7450 (v'ger), 256k L2, 1mb DDR L3 (per chip), 133mhz bus.
CPU Test: 99.67
GCD Loop: 99.23, 3.88 Mops/sec
Floating Point Basic: 99.07, 358.28 Mflops/sec
Altivec Basic: 98.38, 2.86 Gflops/sec
vecLib FFT: 101.63, 1.58 Mflops/sec
Floating Point Library: 100.08, 4.01 Mops/sec
*867mhz 7450 (v'ger) 256k L2, 1mb DDR L3, 133mhz bus*
CPU Test: 104.92
GCD Loop: 99.10, 3.87 Mops/sec
Floating Point Basic: 107.66, 389.32 Mflops/sec
Altivec Basic: 106.03, 3.08 Gflops/sec
vecLib FFT: 108.40, 1.68 Gflops/sec
Floating Point Library: 103.96, 4.16 Mops/sec
I tried 933/133, but the machine would freeze with horrid screen artifacts at the grey apple.
I don't think it was a heat issue, I think it just won't do it in my Mystic... is it still really a Mystic?
Something worthy of noting is that System Profiler continues to report a speed of 650/100 after the bus is set to 133. Powerlogix' CPU director reports correctly, with 867/133, and, most importantly, the proof is in the numbers.
One snag I have run into is, for some reason, that I can only boot from the CR DOM, after wiping my hard drive ( hard drive gets the folder with blinking OS 9 face, or the disk with a question mark ). I may try another hard drive, to see if this one was physically damaged during shipping, aside from the bad data which shipping caused. I was able to boot from the drive, tho, before wiping it. I will first try formatting with the OS X installer, instead of 9.2. I was hoping to have 9.2 installed and running first, so I could flash my broken Radeon AGP with an older ROM and older flashing software.
Admittedly, since first installing 10.3, about a year ago, I have only been able to boot into 9 once. That was with the 500mhz processor. It's as if 10.3 did something funny to the hardware.
I've been able to boot with the OS 9 CD ROM, but not with an installation.
Very strange... and I'd like to know if anyone else has encountered something similar on an AGP G4.
If all esle fails, tho, and the IDE and PCI buses ( I also use an ATA133 card ) are out of whack due to the bus overclock, then I'll just have to settle for an 800/100 setting.
Otherwise, all is well. I was able to upclock the L3 cache an entire 30mhz ( to 248mhz ), using CPU Director, with no problems. Any faster than that results in a hard lock.
Last edited by ironhawk (2005-03-27 7:30 pm)
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#9 2005-03-27 10:41 pm
- NightCougar_37
- PARTY CALL!!!
- From: The bridge of my Akira Class
- Registered: 2001-07-22
- Posts: 9273
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
I had trouble booting OS9 as well in my Cube but this was after I did the R9000 mod. Could be something in the firmware 
.
Interesting how the FPU scores don't really see any increase until you got it to 867.
Guess I didn't post the Cube xbench results in here. Thought I did but I only had put them in the xlr8 review. So heres mine of a 600/300 7410 for you to compare:
CPU Test 71.60
GCD Loop 64.27 2.51 Mops/sec
Floating Point Basic 88.34 319.45 Mflop/sec
AltiVec Basic 49.41 1.44 Gflop/sec
vecLib FFT 71.90 1.12 Gflop/sec
Floating Point Library 113.60 4.55 Mops/sec
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#10 2005-03-28 5:27 am
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
Well, after reading this comparison between a stock (7400/450) Cube, a Sonnet Duet (dual 7400/500) upgraded one, and a PowerForce G4 S100 (7455/1000) upgraded one, I'm definitely shooting to duplicate your upgrade, NightCougar, however I will be on the lookout for a dual 533 DA as a donor machine. They prop up for sale quite regularly, and although they're not cheap, I figure I can always use one of my old Cube CPU's to turn it into a G4/466 or maybe even a single 533 with some luck. Besides, most of them come with GeForce 2MX's, IIRC, so that'll be an added benefit for a modded Cube.
Say, ironhawk
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#11 2005-03-28 6:28 pm
- ironhawk
- Shai Dorsai!
- From: San Francisco
- Registered: 2001-10-16
- Posts: 3080
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
Well, I'm happy to say I have 10.3 up and running, with the 867/133 configuration. I installed while at 650/100, but I think simply unplugging and replugging everything on the board is what did the trick.
Also I have a plethora of cables, some of which the Mac can boot with, most of which it can't.
Since returning to 867/133, my Mac has had no issue at all finding the startup volume.
Come to think of it, it boots very quickly. It eats the OS X startup for lunch!
NightCougar_37 wrote:
I had trouble booting OS9 as well in my Cube but this was after I did the R9000 mod. Could be something in the firmware
Interesting how the FPU scores don't really see any increase until you got it to 867.
Guess I didn't post the Cube xbench results in here. Thought I did but I only had put them in the xlr8 review. So heres mine of a 600/300 7410 for you to compare:
CPU Test 71.60
GCD Loop 64.27 2.51 Mops/sec
Floating Point Basic 88.34 319.45 Mflop/sec
AltiVec Basic 49.41 1.44 Gflop/sec
vecLib FFT 71.90 1.12 Gflop/sec
Floating Point Library 113.60 4.55 Mops/sec
What's equally as interesting are theAltivec and vecLib FFT score increases, whence getting to 600mhz or higher.
It's as if 600mhz marks a turning point of sorts for the G4's Altivec engine.
I was also alarmed at the little increase in FPU scores. Your 7400@600mhz bested my 7450@650mhz.
It could be that the 7400 had a more efficient FPU.
The FPU scores seem accurate tho, in rate of increase when compared with the other 7450 benchmarks, to include the dual 800 XBench Baseline.
Alien wrote:
Well, after reading [url=http://www.xlr8yourmac.com/G4CARDS/powerlogix_g4_1ghz/index.html]this comparison between a stock (7400/450) Cube, a Sonnet Duet (dual 7400/500) upgraded one, and a PowerForce G4 S100 (7455/1000) upgraded one, I'm definitely shooting to duplicate your upgrade, NightCougar, however I will be on the lookout for a dual 533 DA as a donor machine. They prop up for sale quite regularly, and although they're not cheap, I figure I can always use one of my old Cube CPU's to turn it into a G4/466 or maybe even a single 533 with some luck. Besides, most of them come with GeForce 2MX's, IIRC, so that'll be an added benefit for a modded Cube.
Here's something for you to take a look at:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi … 4&rd=1
Alien wrote:
Say, ironhawk
Last edited by ironhawk (2005-03-28 7:33 pm)
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#12 2005-03-28 7:58 pm
- NightCougar_37
- PARTY CALL!!!
- From: The bridge of my Akira Class
- Registered: 2001-07-22
- Posts: 9273
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
I'm using a 7410 not a 7400. The 7410 is much better than the original 7400 for sure.
Oh Alien, check for picts of that Dual 533 processor module. I'm not 100% sure but I think I saw one awhile back, looked like there might be a difference on the board it used. Could be a problem and you might need to design your own heatplate. Be sure to look into it before you get one to be sure.
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#13 2005-03-29 3:19 am
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
The 7400/7410 beats the 7450 clock-for-clock, this is well-documented. The 7450's deeper pipelines hamper its performance, so you need fast clocks and big caches to beat the 7400/7410.
From what I gathered so far looking at pictures on the internet, the procedure to hack a dual 533 into a Cube should be akin to sticking in a dual 450 or 500 (OEM cards): modding the heatplate to make contact with the CPU's and making room for or relocating the coil on the CPU card which interferes with the Cube's heatsink.
It'll be a while before I can financially justify investing in both a second Cube and a 533DP as a donor machine, so until then I'll be on the lookout for as much information as I can find to deternmine whether this is a plasuible hack path.
Used Cubes fetch around
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#14 2005-03-29 3:41 pm
- NightCougar_37
- PARTY CALL!!!
- From: The bridge of my Akira Class
- Registered: 2001-07-22
- Posts: 9273
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
OWC has Dual 533 modules for around $225 in the clearance section right now.
Right I wouldnt mess with those ADC CRTs either, they really stress the power requirements in the Cube a lot. Mine came with an original 15inch LCD in perfect condition. If you can find one of those deals, go for it. Its a nice lil LCD.
Man if I had the extra $$$ I'd almost be willin to buy the tower off ya after you removed the DP. I've been thinkin about getting another Tower to play around with. My Beige is having trouble booting OSX. Most of the time I have to boot to OS9 then reinstall the XPF extensions before it will boot OSX again.
But then I was thinkin about getting a Quicksilver model. I always liked the QS case better. I did hear the QS line had some screwy boards or something. So maybe a DA board in a QS case conversion would be better. heheh, stuff to do when I finally start getting more $$$ coming in .
Last edited by NightCougar_37 (2005-03-29 3:41 pm)
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#15 2005-03-29 4:47 pm
- armox
- Member
- From: SF
- Registered: 2005-02-26
- Posts: 8
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
Sounds great ironhawk, i would like to see the pics. of ur new g4 and we might as well VS our macs, i got PBG4 1.2 Ghz. good luck on ur mission. keep us updated. (lol you can pay me visit at i HOuse lol this is Harout )
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#16 2005-03-29 5:19 pm
- Pixel Shader
- IntelŪ PentiumŪ 4
- Registered: 2004-05-23
- Posts: 1376
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
That PowerMac G4 sure does sound well built and fast, good job ironhawk.
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#17 2005-03-29 9:35 pm
- ironhawk
- Shai Dorsai!
- From: San Francisco
- Registered: 2001-10-16
- Posts: 3080
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
Uh-oh, looks like my AAC buddies are invading
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#18 2005-03-29 9:40 pm
- ironhawk
- Shai Dorsai!
- From: San Francisco
- Registered: 2001-10-16
- Posts: 3080
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
Hey, the Radeon works under OS 10.2.8...
It's a screen full of mess under 10.3.
You think I should go back to support it?
I've never really been hooked on 10.3, and all my software will run fine on Jaguar.
Maybe Tiger will also support it?
Last edited by ironhawk (2005-03-29 9:44 pm)
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#19 2005-03-29 9:52 pm
- armox
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- Registered: 2005-02-26
- Posts: 8
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
well old radions wont run on 10.3, cuz they have updated all of their hardware compatability system. Only 9000 + 's are compatible.
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#20 2005-03-29 11:55 pm
- NightCougar_37
- PARTY CALL!!!
- From: The bridge of my Akira Class
- Registered: 2001-07-22
- Posts: 9273
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
Nah they should work in X.3. Those old Radeon OEM ADC models are popular Cube addons since they are more powerful than the stock Rage 128 and they fit without a VRM move.
When you did the X.3 install did it involve using the Radeon or not? Have you tried updating from X.2->X.3 to see what happens? I've had OSX give me issues when I changed GPUs in my Beige, so anything is possible. Sometimes just a lil change can screw things up.
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#21 2005-03-30 6:36 am
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
NightCougar_37 wrote:
OWC has Dual 533 modules for around $225 in the clearance section right now.
I generally like OWC, but that's a rip-off. From what I see, you can buy a complete 533DP machine in the US second-hand market for twice that, maybe get a GeForce 2 in the deal, and still have half a machine to sell after you scavenge the CPU from it.
Right I wouldnt mess with those ADC CRTs either, they really stress the power requirements in the Cube a lot. Mine came with an original 15inch LCD in perfect condition. If you can find one of those deals, go for it. Its a nice lil LCD.
I was more thinking along the lines of getting a 23" ADC for my main Cube, and then moving my 17" ADC to the second one.
Man if I had the extra $$$ I'd almost be willin to buy the tower off ya after you removed the DP. I've been thinkin about getting another Tower to play around with.
Buying from Europe isn't a good idea right now what with the dollar being worth less than toilet paper. Not as if I'm complaining, though. Buying from US sellers has never been more fun!
,xtG
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#22 2005-03-30 3:12 pm
- NightCougar_37
- PARTY CALL!!!
- From: The bridge of my Akira Class
- Registered: 2001-07-22
- Posts: 9273
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
Yeah I wasn't nuts about that dualie price either on OWC. Why I went for the 533 single instead. I've seen a few on ebay going for a lot less than that at times. But still, for not much more you can get a good 7457 or 7447 anyways.
23inch sounds nice. Kinda wish mine had come with the original 17 LCD. I was checking some power specs on it awhile back and it uses 10 less watts than my 15. Could have been helpful for some of the upgrades i'd like to do.
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#23 2005-03-31 12:33 am
- ironhawk
- Shai Dorsai!
- From: San Francisco
- Registered: 2001-10-16
- Posts: 3080
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
Pixel Shader wrote:
That PowerMac G4 sure does sound well built and fast, good job ironhawk.
That was sort of wierd... do I know you?
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#24 2005-03-31 1:25 am
- ironhawk
- Shai Dorsai!
- From: San Francisco
- Registered: 2001-10-16
- Posts: 3080
Re: Son Of Frankintosh!!
Alien wrote:
Say, ironhawk
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