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Cyberpawz wrote:

Flag burning doesn't incite killing, but flushing down a bible of another religion does? What is the difference? Both are only icons.

The religious fundamentalists that rioted in Afghanistan saw the flushed Koran as just yet another slap in the face by the same western imperialist infidels that have laid waste to their nation for decades now. I'm not suggesting that it's rational or acceptable, but it makes more sense than you flying into a rage over some hippie burning a flag.

Last edited by Sternum (2005-05-29 6:22 pm)

Sassy wrote:

Doesn't that simply denigrate the American model of having respect and dignity for other's conventions? Why stoop to 'their' level? To do so invites retaliation, hatred and contempt for  our hypocrisy. They have unrestricted incentive to sneer at our mendacity and perfidy. If we, as a nation, cannot restrain our emotional control, how do we dare to show outrage for their brutality?

It takes more courage to stick to our ideals than to return tit for tat. It simply encourages more killing. How is there honor in that?

Ya,
I feel so motivated to show respect for a country like Afghanistan where you can buy child brides for $50.
Or be sentenced to death for blasphemy.
To even pretend we are more screwed up than they are over their is just absurd.
Time we stopped bending over backwards to accommodate societies that are stuck in 7th century thinking.

Cyberpawz wrote:

And as I said before the people in whom we are doing this to are not american citizens, nor do they have the same rights as Citizens of the US when they are declared enemy of the state, or held as POWs.  When it comes to that stipulation they are held under the Geneva convention, not the constitution.

The US Constitution only protects those who are US citizens, not anyone else.

I seriously doubt the Geneva Convention makes allowances for denigrating the cultures of POWs.  Which these people have not been classified as or protected under.  It has become obvious that our Executive government no longer respects international law anyway.

And even if what you're saying is legally correct, it is raw un-American cowardice to follow such a creed.  The fact that we do not keep our own standards outside of our borders is precisely why we are hated.

The people rioting are being stupid, yes, I'm not saying anyone should be punished for this, but it was stupid of our military to behave in such a way.

So you admit, you don't give a rat's smurf about the Geneva Convention?

Metacell wrote:

So you admit, you don't give a rat's smurf about the Geneva Convention?

I care about the geneva convention, the difference is though the people we are fighting against don't...

So how are you going to get answers out of a people that know you can't hurt them, or mistreat them as prisoners, but don't care what happens to you when they get you under the same conditions?

Metacell wrote:

So, the Geneva Convention only applies to opponents who also embrace it.  I guess it no longer applies to us, then.  Call me Christian if you must, but I just don't think your enemies' wrongs justify your own.

These people haven't even been charged with anything and are being held indefinitely.  It is well known that many of them are not Al Qaida.  You are basically advocating the unquestioned indefinite detainment and torture of people who might have links to terrorism because of the place they lived in and the country they fought for.  And you have faith that it is the right thing to do.

I envy you.

Cyberpawz wrote:

KingFred wrote:

Cyberpawz wrote:

Did I say worship the flag?

Pretty much:

pawz wrote:

Burn our flag in front of me, and I'll burn your most sacred artifact in front of you

You equated the flag with "most sacred artifact".

The flag is the symbol of our country, it's strength, it's perseverance, an all the sacrifice the military and non military have given to keep this country what it is...

The American flag, to me is more important than any religion in the world... for the idea behind the flag, is the reason why people can choose their religion, and to practice it freely, and not be punished for it. The freedom of religion is only protected by the flag they desecrate when they practice their freedom of speech.

JINGOISM is scary.

Sassy wrote:

If we don't live by our own law, then we're outlaws, and criminals by personal consent.

Someone who lives by this convolution of the law may be forgiven by God, but, as an American, I can't mitigate such violence of the law I have agreed to accept and keep in my pledge of allegiance to the United States of America.

Such an idealist!  I can only say the "Pledge" as a prayer, cause it sure ain't no fact!

Lately, we're getting farther and farther away from what the pledge posits us to be. Gitmo is just one little unravel, but the whole cloth is full of them.

Sassy wrote:

Cyberpawz wrote:

I don't know about you but it's not cowardice to get information from a person any way possible, if it means saving American lives. Personally I would go on international soil where torture is allowed and really get the information from those people.  For I'm sure the Al'queda don't rape, torture or hurt their prisoners at all to get information now do they?

Aha! A fan of 24 and Prof. Alan Dershowitz, I see. In both cases of 24 and Dershowitz, it is suggested that 'if American lives are at stake, nothing is out of bounds.' It's the same as saying, lying is justified if someone or one's self is in jeopardy. It's self defense.

Never seen the shows so I'll take your word for it.

Sassy wrote:

Problematic and troubling. Justify this major offense only once as self defense and it's a small step lower to a lesser and even lesser offense - until 'the enemy' is just an infidel, and infidels aren't really human! Right? Not!

And your point of this is...?

Sassy wrote:

Not everyone is guilty because some are. Not everyone accused is guilty even if it looks that way. In this country, the Constitution says 'all' are innocent until proved guilty. If we don't live by our own law, then we're outlaws, and criminals by personal consent.

We live by our laws, but what do we do with people whom were enemy combatants shooting, and attempting to kill our own soldiers....

It looks like you forgot the 5th Amendment...

AMENDMENT V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.

The US constitution also says this:

Title 18, Section 4001(a) of the U.S. Code: "No citizen shall be imprisoned or otherwise detained by the United States except pursuant to an Act of Congress.

Or how about this straight from the geneva convetion:

SECTION IV: Regulations for the Treatment of Internees

CHAPTER I: General Provisions

Art. 78. If the Occupying Power considers it necessary, for imperative reasons of security, to take safety measures concerning protected persons, it may, at the most, subject them to assigned residence or to internment.

Decisions regarding such assigned residence or internment shall be made according to a regular procedure to be prescribed by the Occupying Power in accordance with the provisions of the present Convention. This procedure shall include the right of appeal for the parties concerned. Appeals shall be decided with the least possible delay. In the event of the decision being upheld, it shall be subject to periodical review, if possible every six months, by a competent body set up by the said Power.

Looks like Bush has every right to detain these people.

Not to mention that the US Constitution only pertains to US citizens, not enemy combatants.

Sassy wrote:

Someone who lives by this convolution of the law may be forgiven by God, but, as an American, I can't mitigate such violence of the law I have agreed to accept and keep in my pledge of allegiance to the United States of America.

Do you even know what the Pledge of Allegiance means?

Last edited by Cyberpawz (2005-05-30 4:46 pm)

KingFred wrote:

Cyberpawz wrote:

Do you even know what the Pledge of Allegiance means?

Why don't you enlighten us. If it won't cost us too much, of course.

I already know, and no I won't answer, it is a question I gave to someone else to answer... lets see what they say first.

Cyberpawz wrote:

KingFred wrote:

Cyberpawz wrote:

Do you even know what the Pledge of Allegiance means?

Why don't you enlighten us. If it won't cost us too much, of course.

I already know, and no I won't answer, it is a question I gave to someone else to answer... lets see what they say first.

I bet her answer is "no". In fact, none of us knows what Pledge of Allegiance means so why don't you explain it to us?

I also don't know what the Pledge of Allegiance means. 
Anyone who does know, please explain it to me ASAP.