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I don't know anything really about the EU constitution they were voting on, but what I heard in passing was that there was a lot of crazy stuff in it. I would love to see Europe unified politically, but an overly controlling constitution for them would not be a good way to start.

locutus_of_borg wrote:

mo' ron wrote:

I don't know anything really about the EU constitution they were voting on, but what I heard in passing was that there was a lot of crazy stuff in it. I would love to see Europe unified politically, but an overly controlling constitution for them would not be a good way to start.

Can I ask why you would like to see Europe unified?

!!!OMGENDTIMES!!!!111!!oneone!

Heh.  "Eurocracy"

ShnickyShnack wrote:

.... this time by the Dutch

With nearly all votes counted, the charter lost 62 percent to 38 percent, an even worse defeat than the 55 percent "no" vote delivered in a French referendum Sunday.

Wow, talk about a hefty margin, huh?

Maybe this is a good thing, actually ... with so little support (and what little support there is, no doubt dropping like a brick), it'll be way easier to just toss the whole thing out the window and try again somewhere down the road.

Very large short-term setback. But for long-term benefits? Or is this the beginning of the end?

Actually - it might means the beginning of "the end" has been delayed, at least a little while

Kirk wrote:

Dare I ask why the Dutch thought the EU constitution was a bad idea?

How often do you read about the Dutch?

There are several reasons people aren't liking the connie, but a major complaint seems connected to the European welfare state(s). Fears of a flood of cheap labor from the EU's new members, for example (there's a common belief in France, for example, that Poles have taken over the plumbing trade).

There also wasn't very much popular consultation; it's basically a bureaucratic document.

I know "welfare state" probably stirs up certain images in the US, but it's probably very different from what they have in the EU, where extremely long paid vacations, agricultural subsidies, universal health care and so on are widespread.

more or less wrote:

Ribtorus wrote:

Heh.  "Eurocracy"

yes, its already all too common to find the term "Eurocrats" among the american exceptionalist crowd... many of whom are cooing over this "rebuke" of the "technocrats."

bullsmurf say i, they just need to re-market the thing.  anyone who passes on the EU is a complete smurfing idiot.  and yes, that is my opinion as a political scientist.  and when they get this sorted out, i look forward to a lot of americans feeling like #2.

Dude, I love your use of language. Will you marry me?

more or less wrote:

ShnickyShnack wrote:

more or less wrote:

yes, its already all too common to find the term "Eurocrats" among the american exceptionalist crowd... many of whom are cooing over this "rebuke" of the "technocrats."

bullsmurf say i, they just need to re-market the thing.  anyone who passes on the EU is a complete smurfing idiot.  and yes, that is my opinion as a political scientist.  and when they get this sorted out, i look forward to a lot of americans feeling like #2.

Dude, I love your use of language. Will you marry me?

for anyone interested in a "pro EU" book, i highly recommend "The United States of Europe" by TR Reid.  its breazy and more journalistic than it is "scholarly," but then i feel both the political scientist as much as the n00b can enjoy this and benefit from the perspective it brings.

I also remember reading H.G. Wells' Outline of History (a surprisingly monumental work from the early 20th Century), in which he talked about (or should I say called for) the creation of a "United States of Europe." Interesting stuff.

Alien wrote:

Kirk wrote:

Dare I ask why the Dutch thought the EU constitution was a bad idea?

1. They feel they got stiffed with the Euro.
2. They oppose to Turkey joining the EU.
3. They fear an influx of cheap Polish labourers.
4. They don't like their current government.

,xtG
.tsooJ

it seems the "problem" with the dutch is that they are rather american... in a red state sorta way...

:lol:

It's a good thing they didn't forget Poland.

The Euro-transition was used to execute a "valuation correction" on the Dutch Guilder, whioch was supposedly "overvalued". This cause the Euro to be actually worth less than the NLG2.20 is was officially valued at.

Also, many retailers, merchants, etc. took the opportunity to raise their prices significantly when the Euro was introduced, succesfully counting on the populace's innumeracy to hide these rises. These factors combined hurt people's buying power.

To top it off, the government insisted for the longest time that there had been research into these "alleged" price increases, and that no evidence had been found. Until a couple of months ago, when they suddenly admitted that there actually had.

,xtG
.tsooJ