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#151 2005-06-08 9:07 am
- avkills
- demyelinated brain matter

- Registered: 2001-05-09
- Posts: 7094
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
Apple does not make graphic cards, so that is a poor example. That and ATI after market GPUs come with drivers and kernel extensions so that is a moot point also. Core Image and Core Video use functions on the GPU, but those functions do not change all that much from updated cards, they just get faster.
If Apple continues to use their own system controller (which would be odd since Phil said that Windows would install on it) then it will be very hard to make OS X work on anything else that does not have that chip. But my gut guess is that Apple will use Intel chipsets and design their own motherboards and basically have a hardware dongle. OS X would not install nor run w/o it. Windows would simply ignore it.
-mark
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#152 2005-06-08 9:20 am
- TiMeLoRd
- Member

- Registered: 2004-06-20
- Posts: 195
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
avkills wrote:
Apple does not make graphic cards, so that is a poor example. That and ATI after market GPUs come with drivers and kernel extensions so that is a moot point also. Core Image and Core Video use functions on the GPU, but those functions do not change all that much from updated cards, they just get faster.
If Apple continues to use their own system controller (which would be odd since Phil said that Windows would install on it) then it will be very hard to make OS X work on anything else that does not have that chip. But my gut guess is that Apple will use Intel chipsets and design their own motherboards and basically have a hardware dongle. OS X would not install nor run w/o it. Windows would simply ignore it.
-mark
Grr, I know they don't, but they do know exactly whats in their boxes, that was my main point. They don't have to write kexts for every graphics card on the planet, only what's in Macs. A stock Mac will work "out of the box", but if OS X will run on anything, it won't work "out of the box", atleast without some tweaking, but that's not the intended 'Mac-experience'. Geeze I dunno, I just don't want to see OS X end up like Windows, but if it does, I'll still have other things in life to enjoy.
There's not a great deal of in-depth info on the chipset thing yet, but that's going to be the most interesting. Interesting with the hardware dongle idea... But alas, someone could make a "mod chip" or something, and whack it on a PC. I think Apple would like to deeply imbed their OS X-ness. Does that make sense? I'm going to bed lol.
Last edited by TiMeLoRd (2005-06-08 9:30 am)
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#153 2005-06-08 9:45 am
- avkills
- demyelinated brain matter

- Registered: 2001-05-09
- Posts: 7094
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
But I've dropped GPUs in Macs w/o installing squat and they have worked, but I do get what you are saying and I agree.
I've been doing a lot of reading comparing x86 to RISC cores and what I've read does not sound good. Intel better have something up their sleeve, because the 970 on paper still looks a lot more attractive than any currently shipping x86 product that Intel has. Although the chipset and CPUs set to be announced next year look promising.
I sure hope Apple just did not make a very big mistake. Those Consoles getting G5 derivatives sure do not seem like they left much room for cooling. So how is M$ going to cool down a 3 core PPC running at 3+ Ghz in a box that is about 1/3 the size of a G5 tower?
Crap I might just bite the bullet and get the fastest PPC tower they come out with once they release the Intel based boxes. I am reasonable though, I need a new laptop and I'll gladly be a guinea pig and play Apple's little experiment.
-mark
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#154 2005-06-08 9:47 am
- Ribtorus
- Member

- Registered: 2002-07-11
- Posts: 13747
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
...on paper
what stage is denial, again?
when surrounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
and the women come out to cut up what remains,
just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
and go to your god like a soldier...
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#155 2005-06-08 9:57 am
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
Ribtorus wrote:
...on paper
what stage is denial, again?
What's wrong with that? Is that denial, wanting more than just the best OS on the same crappy hardware as everyone else?
,xtG
.tsooJ
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#156 2005-06-08 10:05 am
- Ribtorus
- Member

- Registered: 2002-07-11
- Posts: 13747
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
Denial isn't about "wanting", it's about what Apple is prepared to give.
when surrounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
and the women come out to cut up what remains,
just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
and go to your god like a soldier...
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#157 2005-06-08 10:25 am
- fizzwinkus
- purebred fizzlewink

- From: Austin, Texas
- Registered: 2000-08-10
- Posts: 4016
- Website
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
and i'm still waiting for my coffee!
Warmest regards.
Sincerely,
Kevin
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#158 2005-06-08 12:01 pm
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
avkills wrote:
But I've dropped GPUs in Macs w/o installing squat and they have worked, but I do get what you are saying and I agree.
I've been doing a lot of reading comparing x86 to RISC cores and what I've read does not sound good. Intel better have something up their sleeve, because the 970 on paper still looks a lot more attractive than any currently shipping x86 product that Intel has. Although the chipset and CPUs set to be announced next year look promising.I sure hope Apple just did not make a very big mistake. Those Consoles getting G5 derivatives sure do not seem like they left much room for cooling. So how is M$ going to cool down a 3 core PPC running at 3+ Ghz in a box that is about 1/3 the size of a G5 tower?
Crap I might just bite the bullet and get the fastest PPC tower they come out with once they release the Intel based boxes. I am reasonable though, I need a new laptop and I'll gladly be a guinea pig and play Apple's little experiment.
-mark
I'd imagine that Apple will first move all the G4-based Macs to Intel, then once they do release a chip that's equal to/better then the G5 (probably towards the end of Apple's proposed switching period) they'll finally replace the PowerMacs.
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#159 2005-06-08 6:37 pm
- S-Man
- Member
- Registered: 2002-04-16
- Posts: 125
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
Chack out this post:
http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?sto … 7081920942
It talks about Apple no longer supporting 64bit computing with Intel.
Here is what I know:
1. I agree about the 3.2Ghz MulticorePPC chip seemingly being a superior chip. A G5 with a 3.2Gig would be awesome!
2. Intel PentiumM would likely be a better chip for mobile devices. PentiumD is being rumored for DRM uses.
3. A PowerMac with a PentiumD would be 32bit not 64bit.
4. Tiger was released with 64-bit Virtual Memory enabling large amounts of RAM.
I fear that there will be unstable operating systems and unstable applications running with the use of Intel chips.
In future news:
Apple fired Steve Jobs today in a move to reorganize the company once known for innovation in the computer product line. Analysts speculate that the move comes from Job's desire to migrate more of Apple's development team into Intel. The original game plan for Apple was to revolutionize the video industry and capitalize on the mobile computing market. However, consumers have long complained about the newer cheaper Macs no longer being distinguishable from other product brands in terms of performance. They note that rival PC's and servers running 64bit processors are outpacing Macs at every level. The entertainment sector never launched as Apple had planned due to a lack of interest in video downloading. There are also rumors that Intel is secretly creating faster, more reliable chips that use the Microsoft OS. Software developers have been less cooperative stating that Apple has been trying to "reinvent the wheel too many times". It is not known if Apple will continue working with Intel. Intel was not available for comments.
Futurer News:
Dell has purchased what's left of Apple and will use the remaining company resources to expand their market line. "We will sell and support Apple products but will phase in Windows software in the coming months", citing the lack of 64bit computing and lackluster performance.
Radioactive blood
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#160 2005-06-08 6:53 pm
- Mactel
- Member
- Registered: 2005-06-08
- Posts: 5
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
I predict, this will be the repercussions:
Customize your Dell:
Dell Dimension X10
Choose your operating system:
[b]Mac OS X
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#161 2005-06-08 8:40 pm
- avkills
- demyelinated brain matter

- Registered: 2001-05-09
- Posts: 7094
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
I am not in denial about anything, currently right now, the G5 architecture IS better than x86. But what Intel has on the roadmap looks quite nice indeed. I am looking forward to it.
-mark
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#162 2005-06-08 9:11 pm
- Ribtorus
- Member

- Registered: 2002-07-11
- Posts: 13747
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
How is an architecture that lacks scalability, requires expensive cooling, and the need to bolt two processors onto a motherboard to be competitive, better?
How is a G5 at 1.6GHz better than a 1.3GHz Celeron when the Celeron beats or matches it in something like Photoshop or 3D rendering?
The answer hitherto has been "because the G5 runs OSX".
That answer...has been answered, by Apple.
Last edited by Ribtorus (2005-06-08 9:15 pm)
when surrounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
and the women come out to cut up what remains,
just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
and go to your god like a soldier...
Offline
#163 2005-06-08 9:31 pm
- mahakali
- anti-razor

- From: easter egg
- Registered: 2002-11-06
- Posts: 5584
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
S-Man wrote:
Chack out this post:
http://www.macfixit.com/article.php?sto … 7081920942
It talks about Apple no longer supporting 64bit computing with Intel.
From XYourMac
They are using a Pentium 4 660. This is a 3.6 GHz chip. It supports 64 bit extensions, but Apple does not support that *yet*.
1. Instill fear.
2. ???????? (use your imagination)
3. Profit!
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#164 2005-06-08 9:37 pm
- avkills
- demyelinated brain matter

- Registered: 2001-05-09
- Posts: 7094
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
I've done 3D benchmarks with Steyr who has a dual Xeon system and I have a dual 2 G5 and the numbers are very close on the computational times.
My guess is that the 3D app was not optimized for the G5. Photoshop 7 is not optimized well for the G5.
-mark
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#165 2005-06-08 11:01 pm
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
I hope that Intel gets a good 64-bit processor out soon, for the PowerMacs, cuz that would be a hugely stupid step back for Apple to go back to 32-bit processors, especially with Tiger, being created from the ground up for 64-bit. So much for that.
I do think that the DRM could possibly be used to make OS X run only on Apple boxes, or no Windows on Apple boxes, etc., but who knows?
Also, does anyone know if the Intel equivilent of Velocity Engine is as good, or has a future?
It's really gonna suck if developers for Windows and Mac platforms decide to force us to run windoze software on some stupid layer (WINE? Sorry, I don't know what that is...
.
For some reason, this whole move feels like a move to the more mainstream computer market, like Apple is no longer "Thinking Different." That's sad. Hopefully Intel will develop (or is developing?) a Mac-only chip that is 64-bit, and has a more Mac-like name, a heck-of-a-lot better than "Pentium this, Pentium that..." Also, I will start a mass protest if for some reason Intel thinks that they are special enough to put "Intel Inside" stickers on my Mac!!! Death comes then!!
Well, there will be good things coming from this, though. It might help in the war agains M$? Micro$oft seams to be big on undercutting their hardware companies lately, when they left Intel for PowerPCs in the XBox, and putting a watered-down version of Windoze NT on the XBox, undercutting hardware developers in general. So, perhaps marketshare for Apple will come from this? Also, shouldn't some hardware components, such as GPUs be cheaper, and be released faster, or be inter-compatible between platforms? IDK...
I really hope that Apple is able to maintain OS X only on Apple hardware, though. It's gonna be degrading to see people running OS X on their POS Dell. Also, if that does happen, and someone thinks that they are all cool and puts OS X on their PC, then calls themselves a Mac user, and is like, "Alright, I'm a mac guy, I'm joining the club!" and tries to be a fan, the answer is simply "NO." (emphasis on the period). That's not a true mac user.
I hope Apple can eventually pull themselves out and keep "Thinking Different." In any case, I'm not buying an Intel Mac until they've proven themselves worthy (however long that takes). Later all,
-iNerd
Yo ho Yo ho... A pirate's life for me!

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#166 2005-06-09 6:01 am
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
avkills wrote:
[...] what Intel has on the roadmap looks quite nice indeed.
IBM's roadmap promised Apple 3 GHz G5's by, uh, last year.
Intel lured SGI away from MIPS by showing them roadmaps promising 64-bit CPU's by 2001. SGI are all but dead, now.
,xtG
.tsooJ
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#167 2005-06-09 11:33 am
- HackerJax
- Previous Poster

- From: *unknown*
- Registered: 2002-07-13
- Posts: 4871
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
Avari wrote:
Not really. I think apple would be smart enough to do what MS won't. Set a standard and anyone who wants there hardware working with OSX will have to meet that standard. That and them writing the bios for mobos and drivers for most things like they do now. End of story.
MS does that now. Its the WHQL but the decision is still left to the end user.
Basically during driver install you will be notified if your hardware has not passed WHQL (Windows Hardware Quality Lab) and you will have the option to continue or quit.
with straight WHQL drivers windows is very stable and solid. Without then it can be hit or miss depending on the drivers you install.

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#168 2005-06-09 11:51 am
- HackerJax
- Previous Poster

- From: *unknown*
- Registered: 2002-07-13
- Posts: 4871
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
Alien wrote:
avkills wrote:
[...] what Intel has on the roadmap looks quite nice indeed.
IBM's roadmap promised Apple 3 GHz G5's by, uh, last year.
Intel lured SGI away from MIPS by showing them roadmaps promising 64-bit CPU's by 2001. SGI are all but dead, now.
,xtG
.tsooJ
Intel delivered on that promise with the Itanium, which SGI demoed back in 2000 a full year early.
Its not intel's fault that SGI tried to cling to a business model that thrived on soaking customers with expensive hardware and that SGI did nothing to combat the competition pushing 32-bit solutions at a lower price.
SGI back then wanted customers to pay through the nose for proprietary hardware from them ONLY. Even when they decided to offer lower priced hardware on commodity processors it was too late as they had already let the competition get too far ahead.
Apple is trying to avoid that mistake by going to x86 instead of staying on PPC.

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#169 2005-06-09 12:45 pm
- dj phat 2000
- Member
- From: New York, USA
- Registered: 2001-06-22
- Posts: 2667
- Website
Re: The move to Intel - What will the repercussions be?
SGI still puts one hell of a system together. To bad they did move late.
Apple is the only company that makes you want everything they create... MacAddict-4-Life
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