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#26 2005-08-07 1:20 am
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Fine, you're not elevating ID; but you're denegrating evolution. From an ethical standpoint, there's zero difference.
You get touchy when someone degenerates evolution, or even when Creationism or ID is discussed as even an alternative.
How are you any different from ResEdit as based on your own comment?
Spirit was crushed; now is fading, But I want to help make things right.
Because I can see and I can feel, and you can see and you can feel
So why don't we both either stand up and fight
Or at least together we'll call it a night.
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#27 2005-08-07 1:24 am
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
ShnickyShnack wrote:
You say, "don't assume I think Intelligent Design is a science, because I don't think it is."
Fine. But you don't think evolution has anything to do with science either.
There is some science involved with it, just like there is for ID.
They're equivalents. Fine, you're not elevating ID; but you're denegrating evolution. From an ethical standpoint, there's zero difference.
Ethical standpoint?
I think they are both philosophies. I think you'll find that those trying to get creation into schools think evolution is not science - thus placing ID above evolution on the science totem pole. That seems to be what all the creation in school literature I get points towards - wanting to get evolution out of the science classroom. That is a goal of theirs, no doubt. I disagree that creation should be put in, and evolution taken out.
I don't think either belong on the science totem pole.
Just another version of the old argument that keeps wanting to start up again.
I just wanted to make it clear that I did not think ID belonged in the science classroom, and even though evolution is there now - that's not imho excuse to further bastardize science with ID.
In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
-- Steve Taylor
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#28 2005-08-07 1:29 am
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
Phydeaux wrote:
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Fine, you're not elevating ID; but you're denegrating evolution. From an ethical standpoint, there's zero difference.
You get touchy when someone degenerates evolution
Link?
, or even when Creationism
Link?
or ID is discussed as even an alternative.
Link?
How are you any different from ResEdit as based on your own comment?
You don't get it. This isn't about ID vs. evolution.
It's about honesty.
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#29 2005-08-07 1:39 am
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
ShnickyShnack wrote:
It's about honesty.
Yes, yes it is.
Which is why it's sometimes easier to jump on board with a loon with a 1000 or so good points belittling "the establishment" with little to nothing to gain from it rather than someone who treasures their "contributions" to a big picture that no one has even gotten close to yet.
Spirit was crushed; now is fading, But I want to help make things right.
Because I can see and I can feel, and you can see and you can feel
So why don't we both either stand up and fight
Or at least together we'll call it a night.
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#30 2005-08-07 2:32 am
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
ShnickyShnack wrote:
It's about honesty.
Honesty?
I don't hide the fact that I'm a creationist.
I don't hide the fact that I don't buy evolution.
I don't hide the fact that I don't think evolution is science.
I don't try to paint ID as something that its not - which is honesty.
What the hell is your point?
My point was to make it clear that I don't think ID belongs in the classroom.
I felt it important to make that point because I have made it time and time again, yet often the assumption is made that I'm trying to push it as science.
So I just wanted to make it clear that no, I do not consider it science.
The law of biogenesis I consider to be science, but not ID.
In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
-- Steve Taylor
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#31 2005-08-07 5:40 am
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
Ignoring resedit's and schnicky's pointless bickering, and getting back on topic:
If this crap does eventually come down the pipe onto us, I say its time to get off our complacent "wait for it to all blow over" asses, gather torches and numbers, and burn the White House and all its offices to the ground. America will be over.
Who's with me?
(don't all answer at once:roll:)
Ho Eyo He Hum
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#32 2005-08-07 7:21 am
- Pariah
- James Carville Fan..
- From: Belly Of The Beast, Oklahoma!
- Registered: 2001-05-24
- Posts: 18406
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
When you boil down ID to its basic arguement it's this simple proposition :
Since at this moment evolution cannot explain everything the answer to the origin of life must be magic!
"and it's not surprising that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Barack Obama
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#33 2005-08-07 8:49 am
- jerwin
- Sophist
- From: The Garden of Pure Ideology
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- Posts: 7062
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
How does an IDist determine if a particular biologically trait has been designed intelligently?
Some subjects actually enjoy pain, and withhold information they might otherwise have divulged in order to be punished.
Central Intelligence Agency. (1983). Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual
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#34 2005-08-07 8:57 am
- brendave
- Rankin and Rockin like Roger
- From: Valparaiso, IN
- Registered: 2005-01-10
- Posts: 1422
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
Metacell wrote:
Ignoring resedit's and schnicky's pointless bickering, and getting back on topic:
If this crap does eventually come down the pipe onto us, I say its time to get off our complacent "wait for it to all blow over" asses, gather torches and numbers, and burn the White House and all its offices to the ground. America will be over.
Who's with me?
(don't all answer at once:roll:)
I would keep my eyes open for black helicopters and vans in the near future. The NSA are watching.
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#35 2005-08-07 8:58 am
- brendave
- Rankin and Rockin like Roger
- From: Valparaiso, IN
- Registered: 2005-01-10
- Posts: 1422
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
P.S. I'm wicha not against
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#36 2005-08-07 10:24 am
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
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- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
jerwin wrote:
How does an IDist determine if a particular biologically trait has been designed intelligently?
That's a really good question, actually.
Another question: what's the actual mechanism for ID to actually happen? Are we humans allowed to inquire as to how the sky god actually affects the changes we blasphemously ascribe to evolution?
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#37 2005-08-07 11:54 am
- Jaligard
- Sarcasm is just one service I offer.
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Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Are we humans allowed to inquire as to how the sky god actually affects the changes we blasphemously ascribe to evolution?
You are allowed to ask. But if you ask, you will be going to hell.
George Bush: "If this were a dictatorship, it'd be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator."
George Bush: "One of the hardest parts of my job is to try to connect Iraq to the war on terror."
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#38 2005-08-07 12:21 pm
- NAG
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Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
Jaligard wrote:
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Are we humans allowed to inquire as to how the sky god actually affects the changes we blasphemously ascribe to evolution?
You are allowed to ask. But if you ask, you will be going to hell.
Because god loves you.
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#39 2005-08-07 12:28 pm
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
Evolution has nothing to do with the orign of life. Survival of the fittest alone does not create a new species. The only argument that they use for creationism is that they don't understand how something could have come about any other way. The problem with this is that many of the arguments that they try and use to show that evolution can't happened are later shown that they could happen.
Do you think there can be a change in a species( not to a different species) through random mutations?
Edit: how does intelligent design show that not all species lived at the same time?
Last edited by Paul98 (2005-08-07 12:37 pm)
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#40 2005-08-07 1:26 pm
- jerwin
- Sophist
- From: The Garden of Pure Ideology
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- Posts: 7062
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
resedit wrote:
Platies and Swordtails are different species, yet hybrid freely (in fact most in pet stores are hybrid - that's how they get the colours). Even if hybridization no longer becomes possible, or appears to be possible, it still not a "new type".
You're confusing typological species with darwinian species...
Typological species concept
Initially, species were considered to be manifestations
ofLast edited by jerwin (2005-08-07 1:28 pm)
Some subjects actually enjoy pain, and withhold information they might otherwise have divulged in order to be punished.
Central Intelligence Agency. (1983). Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual
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#41 2005-08-07 1:36 pm
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
Why are you using "science" to explain a "religion" like evolution?
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#42 2005-08-07 1:55 pm
- [MA] Flying_Meat
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- Posts: 8516
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
resedit wrote:
Evolution itself makes a mockery of science. There is some science involved, but it fails in several aspects - namely no explanation for the origin of life, no explanation for the mechanism (survival of fittest is not a mechanism - it only works with genes already in a gene pool), etc.
They say "random mutation + helluvalota time" but there's no falsification for that, none at all.
Random mutations that we witness NEVER have resulted in a new type of animal. By "type" I don't mean speciation, we define species to give us a means of classification.
Platies and Swordtails are different species, yet hybrid freely (in fact most in pet stores are hybrid - that's how they get the colours). Even if hybridization no longer becomes possible, or appears to be possible, it still not a "new type".
as has been stated, some questions do not have complete answers, but do not equate that with the promotion of ID.
plain and simple.
a species splits along mutation and unmutated lines. when that happens several times, you wind up with two animals that don't seem to bear much resemblance. small furry mammal and large mostly hairless elephant sharing a common ancestry. that is a much smaller scale example than single celled animal and human.
if it is not currently possible to provide evidence of all splits, from there to here, is it legitimate to claim ID?
...and watch out for the flying meat!
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#43 2005-08-07 1:55 pm
- JakeTheTall
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Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
Can I teach that the world is flat, and supported by an infinite stack of giant turtles, in that philosophy class, too ?
Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet." They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew.
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#44 2005-08-07 1:59 pm
- [MA] Flying_Meat
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- Posts: 8516
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
brendave wrote:
Metacell wrote:
Ignoring resedit's and schnicky's pointless bickering, and getting back on topic:
If this crap does eventually come down the pipe onto us, I say its time to get off our complacent "wait for it to all blow over" asses, gather torches and numbers, and burn the White House and all its offices to the ground. America will be over.
Who's with me?
(don't all answer at once:roll:)I would keep my eyes open for black helicopters and vans in the near future. The NSA are watching.
wow. that's a sorry state of affairs, eh? scared little men in black vehicles swarming to apprehend someone that says something.
wow. what a great nation?
...and watch out for the flying meat!
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#45 2005-08-07 2:07 pm
- brendave
- Rankin and Rockin like Roger
- From: Valparaiso, IN
- Registered: 2005-01-10
- Posts: 1422
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
[MA] Flying_Meat wrote:
brendave wrote:
Metacell wrote:
Ignoring resedit's and schnicky's pointless bickering, and getting back on topic:
If this crap does eventually come down the pipe onto us, I say its time to get off our complacent "wait for it to all blow over" asses, gather torches and numbers, and burn the White House and all its offices to the ground. America will be over.
Who's with me?
(don't all answer at once:roll:)I would keep my eyes open for black helicopters and vans in the near future. The NSA are watching.
wow. that's a sorry state of affairs, eh? scared little men in black vehicles swarming to apprehend someone that says something.
wow. what a great nation?
I should have put a 
after that one
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#46 2005-08-07 2:15 pm
- jerwin
- Sophist
- From: The Garden of Pure Ideology
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- Posts: 7062
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
Imagine a fish species that is quite variable in size. A generalist, this fish tends to thrive, until a carnivorous fish is introduced by chance, into its habitat. Many of our original species are preyed upon. However, the largest fish are too large t be threatened, and the smallest fish, well, they can hide amongst rocks. If the largest fish and the smallest fish breed, it is likely that the offspring will not survive. If the large fish only mate with other large fish, and the small fish with other small fish, the genepool thrives...
Some subjects actually enjoy pain, and withhold information they might otherwise have divulged in order to be punished.
Central Intelligence Agency. (1983). Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual
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#47 2005-08-07 2:15 pm
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
brendave wrote:
[MA] Flying_Meat wrote:
brendave wrote:
I would keep my eyes open for black helicopters and vans in the near future. The NSA are watching.wow. that's a sorry state of affairs, eh? scared little men in black vehicles swarming to apprehend someone that says something.
wow. what a great nation?I should have put a
Oh, I dunno ... there surely are all kinds of national security bots keeping a tireless eye on the intarweb.
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#48 2005-08-07 2:52 pm
- Chickenhawk
- Snark Snark Snark Snark
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Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
Isn't it sad that we're debating evolution in the 21st century?
The recent medical controversy over whether vaccinations cause autism reveals a habit of human cognition—thinking anecdotally comes naturally, whereas thinking scientifically does not. -- Michael Shermer
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#49 2005-08-07 3:08 pm
- Zetetic Apparatchik
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Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
Why? 200 years isn't really enough time to get good data. If you are going to approach it scientifically, do it properly.
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Protest ist, wenn ich sage, das und das paßt mir nicht. Widerstand ist, wenn ich dafür sorge, daß das, was mir nicht paßt, nicht länger geschieht.
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#50 2005-08-07 4:01 pm
- [Tycho?]
- As Elusive As Doubt
- From: May the best sentience win
- Registered: 2000-06-19
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Re: Intelligent Design & Neocon Politics
Zetetic Apparatchik wrote:
Why? 200 years isn't really enough time to get good data. If you are going to approach it scientifically, do it properly.
The sad thing is that creationism is being debated in teh 21st century, and is being compared with science.
I love how apparently only people in very religious areas seem to think evolution is not based on science. In the entire western world except for the US it is a total non issue. I guess they just have their eyes closed. Not Iran though, teaching of that curesed evolution is banned there, thank god.
I could bore you with a philosophical tirade about freedom and tyranny, or try and explain to you what new horizons are suddenly open to me, but I doubt you would understand and if you did it might frighten you. That amuses me.
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