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ShnickyShnack wrote:

You're a Christian and a biologist but you believe in evolution? I thought that made you a God-hater.

No.
I do think it makes an inconsistancy - but that's my interpretation.
No one in this thread, or any IDer referenced in this thread, said anything about evolutionists being "god haters". I use to buy evolution and during that period, you can bet the farm I loved God.

But seriously, why don't we look at creationism for awhile and see where it gets us?

For example, as I understand it, the human race was wiped out except for those who survived aboard Noah's Ark. How many people were aboard, and who were they? Were they related? Were they enough to form a viable gene pool?

Yes, they were enough for a viable gene pool.
If you remember, Noah wasn't that many generations from Adam - people lived really long back then. The short life span now comparatively is indication btw of a major change in earths ecosystem.

With longer lifespans with longer reproducing periods there were less generations from Adam to Noah than there would be now. Also, longer life before the flood indicates that conditions were more optimal - which may have meant a reduction in genetic disease due to mutation.

Post flood, there was Noah and his wife, his three sons - and their wives.
Life spans started to shrink after that, the earth had been damaged by the flood - and no longer was as optimal.

It wasn't until after Abraham's days that incest laws were given, one interpretation (bible doesn't say) is that at that point, genetic disease had become enough of a problem that marriage to close relatives was no longer genetically advisable.

And what kind of birth rate would be necessary to go from a handful of people to a repopulated planet by Greek and Roman times?

Not that great really, especially considering the fact that they lived a lot longer.
Back in 8th grade - I did the math on the genealogy to see if anyone was alive during the flood other than Noah and his family, and no one was (methuselah died same year as the flood - interestingly enough). I also did the math to see if there was enough time for there to be cities when it was talking about cities - and yes, there was more than enough time. Remember exponential math when looking at population growth. If you are ever offered a job where your pay for a day doubles every day for a month - but starts at a penny, take it.

resedit wrote:

<snip>

There you go again.... The bible (especially genesis) is not a historical document. It is an anthropological/ religious document at the most. The whole reason this debate exists is because you fundamentalist types refuse to admit that the bible is not from the mouth of god. Current historical evidence suggests the bible was actually written after the jews returned from their exile in babylon. It honestly has no more validity than stuff like the epic of gilgamesh, or the greek myths. My western civ course has the bible as a text, but it is being taught as being anthropological, not representative of real historical events. Example- The tower of babel. It was likely a bablonian zigguraut, but it being the tallest building the exiled jews ever saw, they believed it was a tower to reach god.

Did abraham, issac, and jacob actually exist? Possible.
None of their deeds seem too extraordanary to be the result of myth.

Did methuselah live close to a millenium? Unlikely.

i still like using the OT to taunt literalist bible thumpers.

Last edited by more or less (2005-09-13 1:25 pm)

genesis is in the OT, correct?

more or less wrote:

i still like using the OT to taunt literalist bible thumpers.

Res downplays the importance of the Old Testament, believe it or not.

mo' ron wrote:

Chickenhawk wrote:

Example- The tower of babel. It was likely a bablonian zigguraut, but it being the tallest building the exiled jews ever saw, they believed it was a tower to reach god.

IIRC, Res actually beliefs that the tower of babel story is not literal.

Then why think people have lived to be 900 years old?

Chick has some fun fudie creationist tracts that explained why people lived so long and how the great flood happened.  One of his primary sources is "Dr." Kent Hovind, a creation science evangelist - but it appears from his site that he's more interested in selling schwag.  There's even a theme park.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/ … ing%20Star

In case you all haven't heard, the oldest known cosmic event has been detected. It's a gamma ray burst from 12.8 BILLION LY away (which means it happened 12.8 billion years ago).

As scientists look farther away, they are looking further back in time, he said. With the new technology, they are likely to see a star even farther away, he said.

Cowie said that by studying gamma ray bursts, scientists will be able to learn more about the star formation of the universe, and how the Earth's sun formed.

Studying the formation of stars will also help scientists understand how various elements, including carbon, were formed.

"This is a very fundamental aspect of the origin of everything, including us," he said.

res, and anyone else genuinely interested in evolutionary creationism, please read:

http://www.ualberta.ca/~dlamoure/3EvoCr.htm

Hank Rearden wrote:

res, and anyone else genuinely interested in evolutionary creationism, please read:

http://www.ualberta.ca/~dlamoure/3EvoCr.htm

I use to believe so called "God Guided Evolution" but I don't think either biblical or scientific evidence supports that position. I personally think it is a "luke warm" position.

mo' ron wrote:

resedit wrote:

And for the seventeenth time, a young earth doesn't demand a young universe.

It does if you read Genesis as literal.

Hot sun making me sweat
'Gators getting close, hasn't got me yet

I can't dance, I can't talk.
Only thing about me is the way I walk.
I can't dance, I can't sing
I'm just standing here selling everything.

Um... I'm not sure how to interpret that, literally or not.

Res has stated on numerous occasions that in his view the universe can be billions of years old, but the earth can't be more than 6,000 or so.