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#1 2005-10-26 7:09 pm

Sassy
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It's Time to Get Tough!

We've Been Here Before

We've Been Here Before
What was the cause, the point, the strategy? Suddenly many Americans started to realize that there was no good answer.

By Anna Quindlen
Newsweek

Oct. 31, 2005 issue - The Vietnam Veterans Memorial is a tapering wall of black granite cut into the grass of Constitution Gardens. Maya Lin envisioned a scar when she designed it, a scar on this land, which is exactly right. Maybe someday his security detail could drive George W. Bush over to take a look. He'll be able to see himself in the reflective surface.

The list of names etched into the wall begins with a soldier who died in 1959 and ends with one who died in 1975. Nearly 60,000 dead are commemorated here. It is the most personal of war memorials. You can touch the cold names with your warm fingers.

The president never wanted the war in Iraq to be personal. His people forbade photographs of coffins arriving home. They refused to keep track of how many Iraqis had been killed and wounded. When "Nightline" devoted a show to the faces of soldiers who had died, one conservative broadcast outlet even pulled the program from its lineup.

The president wanted this to be about policy, not about people. Even that did not go well. The policy became a moving target. First there were weapons of mass destruction that were not there and direct links to the terrorists who attacked on September 11 that didn't exist. The removal of Saddam Hussein was given as the greatest good; it has been done. Then it became the amorphous goal of bringing freedom to the Iraqi people, as though liberty were flowers and we were FTD. The elections, the constitution, the rubble, the dead. Once again we were destroying the village in order to save it.

This all took an unfortunate turn for the administration during the president's vacation in August, when Cindy Sheehan showed up at his ranch. Say what you would about her politics or tactics, there was no doubt that she was a mother whose soldier son was now dead, and who wanted to know why. What was the cause, the point, the strategy? And suddenly many Americans started to realize that there was no good answer.

The Vietnam Memorial stands, in part, as a monument to blind incrementalism, to men who refused to stop, not because of wisdom but because of ego, because of the fear of looking weak. Not enough troops, not enough planning, no real understanding of the people or the power of the insurgency, dwindling public support. The war in Iraq is a disaster in the image and likeness of its predecessor.

During each election cycle, we ponder the question of whether character matters. Of course it does. Does anyone doubt that the continued prosecution of this war has to do with the personality of the commander in chief, a man who is stubborn and calls it strength, who wears blinders and calls it vision? When he vowed to invade Iraq, the advisers he heeded were those who, like him, had never seen combat. The one who had was marginalized and is now gone. The investigation of who leaked what to whom, of what the reporter knew and how she knew it, may be about national security and journalistic ethics, but at its base it is about something more important: the Nixonian lengths to which these people will go to shore up a bankrupt policy and destroy those who cross them on it.

The most unattractive trait of the American empire is American arrogance, which the president embodies and which this war elevated. It is not simply that we have a good system. It is the system everyone else should have. It is the best system, and we are the best people. We can mend rivalries so ancient that they not only predate our nation but the birth of Christ. We will install the leaders we like in a country we scarcely understand, leaders who will either be seen as puppets by their people or who will eventually turn against us. We have been here before.

"In Vietnam we didn't have the lessons of Vietnam to guide us," says David Halberstam, who won a Pulitzer Prize for his coverage of that war. "In Iraq we did have those lessons. The tragedy is that we didn't pay attention to them." Or maybe only our leaders did not. The polls show the American people have turned on this war much more quickly than they did on the war in Vietnam. Of course, they are the ones who pay the price.

Perhaps the leaders of the Democratic Party should take time off from their fund-raisers and visit the Vietnam Memorial, too. They should remember one of the most powerful men the party ever produced, Lyndon B. Johnson, and how he was destroyed by opposition to the war in Vietnam and bested by those brave enough to speak against it.

At least Johnson had the good sense to be heartbroken by the body bags. Bush appears merely peevish at being criticized. Someone with a trumpet should play taps outside the White House for the edification of a president who has not attended a single funeral for the Iraqi war dead. As I am writing this, the number of American soldiers killed is 1, 992. By the time you read it, it may have topped 2,000. Will I be writing these same things when the number is 3,000, 5,000, 10,000? If we are such a great nation, why are we utterly incapable of learning from our mistakes? America's sons and daughters are dying to protect the egos of those whose own children are safe at home. Again.
© 2005 Newsweek, Inc.

Why can't we learn from our mistakes? Why does a bomb have to fall on us before we are aroused from apathy and cat naps. History is for learning how NOT to repeat mistakes.

The President and the NeoCons are in deep doo-doo. Well deserved. And, finally, some of the so-called 'liberals' are getting tough! It's about time.


You have a right to your own opinion. You do not have a right to your own facts -

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#2 2005-10-26 7:15 pm

Farmerkev
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Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

I think (humbly) that just perhaps liberals miss the true point of both Vietnam and Iraq.
There is one similarity, the are both about standing up to something.


Do your part to combat global warming.
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#3 2005-10-26 7:18 pm

after-life
Member
Registered: 2003-12-25
Posts: 2370

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

Standing up to what? Honesty? Dignity? Grace? Intelligence? Tact? Well-being?

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#4 2005-10-26 7:21 pm

Farmerkev
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Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

Vietnam was the commies, Iraq is the terrorists.


Do your part to combat global warming.
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#5 2005-10-26 7:26 pm

bratboy
laden with emotion
Royal Wombat
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2003-01-19
Posts: 34106

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

Farmerkev wrote:

I think (humbly) that just perhaps liberals miss the true point of both Vietnam and Iraq.
There is one similarity, the are both about standing up to something.

Oh that's what I'm missing!

lol

I knew there had to be something...


"One thing we've learned is there's a difference between being disappointed and having madmen in authority."

                                                                   --Paul Krugman

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#6 2005-10-26 7:31 pm

ShnickyShnack
::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
From: Rockin' out
Registered: 2001-05-25
Posts: 22237

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

Farmerkev wrote:

Vietnam was the commies, Iraq is the terrorists.

In both cases it was imposing America's will on a foreign country that had zero interest in receiving it.


Note: please delete this post.

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#7 2005-10-26 7:32 pm

hal9k
Member
From: Studio Apt. w/view in WMass
Registered: 2005-02-25
Posts: 1082

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

Farmerkev wrote:

Vietnam was the commies, Iraq is the terrorists.

So, you think the American experience of Vietnam was positive?

I'm a little acquainted with this author. I've had 'issues' with a particular 'take' of hers, and because of that have not read a word of hers for, nigh on 15 years now.

Regardless of my own peevish prejudice, she's a highly talented writer. Maybe brilliant.

Ya might wanna pay attention to what she has to say.

Last edited by hal9k (2005-10-26 7:37 pm)


"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- the late Hunter S. Thompson
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#8 2005-10-26 7:34 pm

Farmerkev
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Posts: 18617

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

bratboy wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

I think (humbly) that just perhaps liberals miss the true point of both Vietnam and Iraq.
There is one similarity, the are both about standing up to something.

Oh that's what I'm missing!

lol

I knew there had to be something...

If you didn't understand that's what motivated both Presidents and admins, then yeah.
That is the prime motivator, no big conspiracy about making money or he tried to kill my daddy , that's just a nice side bennie. Philosophies can compete without warfare so a lot of the neo-con stuff is tin foil hat too.
Everything you needed to know you learned back on the grade school playground.


Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.

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#9 2005-10-26 7:39 pm

Zetetic Apparatchik
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Registered: 2001-01-07
Posts: 8250

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

I still don't understand the whole Iraq = Terror argument. confused


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#10 2005-10-26 7:40 pm

Farmerkev
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Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

hal9k wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

Vietnam was the commies, Iraq is the terrorists.

So, you think the American experience of Vietnam was positive?

I'm a little acquainted with this author. I've had 'issues' with a particular 'take' of hers, and because of that have not read a word of hers for, nigh on 15 years now.

Regardless of my own peevish prejudice, she's a highly talented writer. Maybe brilliant.

Ya might wanna pay attention to what she says.

Vietnam positive or negative, that's tough to call because of the unknown what ifs.

On the author, I've read everything she's written in Newsweek for years.
I think even less of her opinions than George Will's and I think he's a pompous idiot.


Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.

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#11 2005-10-26 7:42 pm

Farmerkev
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Registered: 2003-01-03
Posts: 18617

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

Zetetic Apparatchik wrote:

I still don't understand the whole Iraq = Terror argument. confused

Because you're confusing the battleground with the enemy.
It's not about the country Iraq anymore than it was about Vietnam.


Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.

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#12 2005-10-26 7:43 pm

Farmerkev
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Posts: 18617

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

ShnickyShnack wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

Vietnam was the commies, Iraq is the terrorists.

In both cases it was imposing America's will on a foreign country that had zero interest in receiving it.

nope


Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.

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#13 2005-10-26 7:48 pm

bratboy
laden with emotion
Royal Wombat
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2003-01-19
Posts: 34106

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

Farmerkev wrote:

If you didn't understand that's what motivated both Presidents and admins, then yeah.
That is the prime motivator, no big conspiracy about making money or he tried to kill my daddy , that's just a nice side bennie. Philosophies can compete without warfare so a lot of the neo-con stuff is tin foil hat too.
Everything you needed to know you learned back on the grade school playground.

Sorry Kev, I simply can't take your word on what the "motivation" was concerning this current situation in Iraq.

shrug


"One thing we've learned is there's a difference between being disappointed and having madmen in authority."

                                                                   --Paul Krugman

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#14 2005-10-26 7:49 pm

hal9k
Member
From: Studio Apt. w/view in WMass
Registered: 2005-02-25
Posts: 1082

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

Farmerkev wrote:

On the author, I've read everything she's written in Newsweek for years.
I think even less of her opinions than George Will's and I think he's a pompous idiot.

I see T. Jefferson in your sig.

Anybody else, maybe contemporary that you'd recommend?

I think Quindlen is a much better writer than Will.

Not because of any 'political' slant.

Because of talent.


"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- the late Hunter S. Thompson
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#15 2005-10-26 7:52 pm

Ronald Reagan
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Registered: 2000-03-11
Posts: 2238

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

Farmerkev wrote:

I think (humbly) that just perhaps liberals miss the true point of both Vietnam and Iraq.
There is one similarity, the are both about standing up to something.

lol


Efficient coroutine generation of constrained Gray sequences

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#16 2005-10-26 7:55 pm

Farmerkev
Official Dementor
Moderator
Registered: 2003-01-03
Posts: 18617

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

hal9k wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

On the author, I've read everything she's written in Newsweek for years.
I think even less of her opinions than George Will's and I think he's a pompous idiot.

I see T. Jefferson in your sig.

Anybody else, maybe contemporary that you'd recommend?

I think Quindlen is a much better writer than Will.

Not because of any 'political' slant.

Because of talent.

There isn't any one pundit I always agree with, even Quindlen gets points right once in awhile.

The T Jefferson quote just fit minithink so perfectly I couldn't resist it.


Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.

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#17 2005-10-26 7:56 pm

Farmerkev
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Registered: 2003-01-03
Posts: 18617

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

Ronald Reagan wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

I think (humbly) that just perhaps liberals miss the true point of both Vietnam and Iraq.
There is one similarity, the are both about standing up to something.

lol

dozens of examples of you whining because people give flippant replies to your thoughts and that's the best you could come up with for me


Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.

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#18 2005-10-26 7:57 pm

hal9k
Member
From: Studio Apt. w/view in WMass
Registered: 2005-02-25
Posts: 1082

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

Here's some talent:

"The policy became a moving target. First there were weapons of mass destruction that were not there and direct links to the terrorists who attacked on September 11 that didn't exist. The removal of Saddam Hussein was given as the greatest good; it has been done. Then it became the amorphous goal of bringing freedom to the Iraqi people, as though liberty were flowers and we were FTD. The elections, the constitution, the rubble, the dead. Once again we were destroying the village in order to save it."


"...as though liberty were flowers and we were FTD."

What a metaphor.


"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- the late Hunter S. Thompson
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#19 2005-10-26 8:00 pm

Sassy
Member
From: planet Earth
Registered: 2004-05-04
Posts: 1035
Website

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

Farmerkev wrote:

I think (humbly) that just perhaps liberals miss the true point of both Vietnam and Iraq.
There is one similarity, the are both about standing up to something.

kev, wouldn't you agree that there are more and probably better ways to "standing up to something" than going to war? I agree that in 'some' cases, force becomes a necessity, but it never settles a dispute, disagreement, wrong satisfactorily. The so called 'loser' never forgets the humiliation, the degradation, the insult. We may become allies later on, even agree to cooperate, but the historical memory doesn't allow us to 'trust' without some hidden doubt.

As for me, I agree with Ms Quinlan's conclusions. She states the facts -- and by now, we all know them -- and makes the argument that we are paying a too high price for not learning from the fool hardy decisions leadership made in the past and allowed the present day leadership to lead us into a repeat scenario using supercharged fear and emotion, not good reason.

Our leadership continues to bombard us with rash, unfounded and discredited rhetoric to whip us into an emotional response rather than a rational discourse of the cause they espouse. The V.P. is especially guilty of this mode of operation followed in close proximity by the President and the Secretaries of Defense and State. Enough already. It's time to get tough and call them to accountability and responsibility for their incompetence.


You have a right to your own opinion. You do not have a right to your own facts -

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#20 2005-10-26 8:22 pm

resedit
Chicken Little
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From: /dev/null
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Posts: 50394
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Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

hal9k wrote:

Here's some talent:

"The policy became a moving target. First there were weapons of mass destruction that were not there and direct links to the terrorists who attacked on September 11 that didn't exist.

In all fairness - it was not the administration that made any Iraq / 911 links.
We went into Afghanistan because of Afghanistan 911 links - that's not why we went into Iraq, and the administration never claimed Iraq / 911 links.

The removal of Saddam Hussein was given as the greatest good; it has been done. Then it became the amorphous goal of bringing freedom to the Iraqi people,

With Saddam taken out, we must stay the course or Iraq would become an Al Queda state wether the people wanted it or not.


In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
-- Steve Taylor

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#21 2005-10-26 8:28 pm

Zetetic Apparatchik
Member
Registered: 2001-01-07
Posts: 8250

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

Farmerkev wrote:

Zetetic Apparatchik wrote:

I still don't understand the whole Iraq = Terror argument. confused

Because you're confusing the battleground with the enemy.
It's not about the country Iraq anymore than it was about Vietnam.

Yes, but without US intervention, the communists would have still taken power in Vietnam. It is only with US intervention that those who deal with Al-Qaeda will take power in Iraq.


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#22 2005-10-26 8:28 pm

macnuke
just a plano guy
Moderator
From: North Dallas 40
Registered: 2004-05-16
Posts: 7132

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

options.... ya gotta love options.
save the oil

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#23 2005-10-26 8:32 pm

bratboy
laden with emotion
Royal Wombat
From: Austin, Texas
Registered: 2003-01-19
Posts: 34106

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

resedit wrote:

In all fairness - it was not the administration that made any Iraq / 911 links.
We went into Afghanistan because of Afghanistan 911 links - that's not why we went into Iraq, and the administration never claimed Iraq / 911 links.

I think you're incredibly naive if you honestly believe that they were not relying on that misconception.


"One thing we've learned is there's a difference between being disappointed and having madmen in authority."

                                                                   --Paul Krugman

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#24 2005-10-26 8:34 pm

Zetetic Apparatchik
Member
Registered: 2001-01-07
Posts: 8250

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

macnuke wrote:

options.... ya gotta love options.
save the oil

You really should read that article.


Join the MAF AudioScrobbler group.
Protest ist, wenn ich sage, das und das paßt mir nicht. Widerstand ist, wenn ich dafür sorge, daß das, was mir nicht paßt, nicht länger geschieht.

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#25 2005-10-26 8:36 pm

macnuke
just a plano guy
Moderator
From: North Dallas 40
Registered: 2004-05-16
Posts: 7132

Re: It's Time to Get Tough!

Zetetic Apparatchik wrote:

macnuke wrote:

options.... ya gotta love options.
save the oil

You really should read that article.

I did
before I posted it

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