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#1 2005-11-24 7:44 am
- Tetrachloride
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- Registered: 2001-01-29
- Posts: 7150
Jose Padilla on trial
The Bush administration decided to charge Jose Padilla with less serious crimes because it was unwilling to allow testimony from two senior members of Al Qaeda who had been subjected to harsh questioning, current and former government officials said Wednesday.
The two senior members were the main sources linking Mr. Padilla to a plot to bomb targets in the United States, the officials said.
The Qaeda members were Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, believed to be the mastermind of the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, and Abu Zubaydah, a top recruiter, who gave their accounts to American questioners in 2002 and 2003. The two continue to be held in secret prisons by the Central Intelligence Agency, whose internal reviews have raised questions about their treatment and credibility, the officials said...
Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales repeatedly refused at to address questions a news conference about why the government had not brought criminal charges related to the most serious accusations. .
Nearly anything the US govt does in these trials of "detainees" is bound to incite the Muslim world and beyond.
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#2 2005-11-24 8:27 am
- Farmerkev
- Official Dementor
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Re: Jose Padilla on trial
Tetrachloride wrote:
Nearly anything the US govt does in these trials of "detainees" is bound to incite the Muslim world and beyond.
Heaven forbid we incite the muslims.
Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.
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#3 2005-11-24 8:43 am
- Ribtorus
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- Registered: 2002-07-11
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Re: Jose Padilla on trial
There seems to be a suggestion that "harsh questioning" has yielded less-than-useful information to prosecute a suspected terrorist.
when surrounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
and the women come out to cut up what remains,
just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
and go to your god like a soldier...
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#4 2005-11-24 8:49 am
- Tallgeese
- Sternly Advising
- From: Pool Party
- Registered: 2000-10-17
- Posts: 34092
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
Imagine that.
I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.
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#5 2005-11-24 9:49 am
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
Ribtorus wrote:
There seems to be a suggestion that "harsh questioning" has yielded less-than-useful information to prosecute a suspected terrorist.
Yeah - giving them milk and cookies and a health club membership is a lot more effective.
In her right hand Jenny held the Bible of her mother
Jenny had a pistol in the other
-- Steve Taylor
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#6 2005-11-24 10:03 am
- Tallgeese
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- Posts: 34092
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
res, stop being intentionally dense. Anyone who knows anything about interrogation knows that torture only results in people saying anything - true or not - to make it stop.
I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.
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#7 2005-11-24 10:04 am
- Tallgeese
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Re: Jose Padilla on trial
And you keep getting more and more idiotic with your "false dilemma" statements.
I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.
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#8 2005-11-24 10:07 am
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
As I recall, the case against this guy is really weak.
Note: please delete this post.
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#9 2005-11-24 10:13 am
- Tallgeese
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- Posts: 34092
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
Who needs a case when you've got an "enemy combatant" who you don't have to have evidence against to hold?
I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.
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#10 2005-11-24 10:48 am
- Farmerkev
- Official Dementor
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Re: Jose Padilla on trial
Tallgeese wrote:
res, stop being intentionally dense. Anyone who knows anything about interrogation knows that torture only results in people saying anything - true or not - to make it stop.
Be fair, it depends on what you're calling torture.
Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.
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#11 2005-11-24 12:10 pm
- JakeTheTall
- Cargo Cultist
- From: In Permanent Opposition
- Registered: 2003-03-13
- Posts: 9612
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
Ribtorus wrote:
There seems to be a suggestion that "harsh questioning" has yielded less-than-useful information to prosecute a suspected terrorist.
And / or would be inadmissable in court.
Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet." They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew.
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#12 2005-11-24 12:11 pm
- charon
- doesn't make change
- From: DC
- Registered: 2003-05-06
- Posts: 5328
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
So they're putting Padilla in a civilian court, which was supposedly out of the question. And they're not even indicting him for the major reason Padilla was supposedly locked up: planning to detonate a dirty bomb in the U.S.
The justification for treating our conflict with al Qaeda as a "war" is looking flimsier than ever.
Last edited by charon (2005-11-24 12:11 pm)
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#13 2005-11-24 12:17 pm
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
Farmerkev wrote:
Tallgeese wrote:
res, stop being intentionally dense. Anyone who knows anything about interrogation knows that torture only results in people saying anything - true or not - to make it stop.
Be fair, it depends on what you're calling torture.
What's permissable for a prisoner in criminal cases according to US law?
Pretty much nothing, correct?
Note: please delete this post.
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#14 2005-11-24 1:26 pm
- D'Eyncourt
- OMGDICTATOR
- Registered: 2001-12-27
- Posts: 8807
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Re: Jose Padilla on trial
What is this talk about torture? Let's not get away from the central problem of the Padilla case. Here we have an American citizen who had been declared an "enemy combattant" and thus was placed in the custody of military justice and denied his US Constitutional rights (access to a lawyer, a reasonably quick trial, etc). From what I know of the case, Padilla isn't close to an angel but how does anyone justify these actions of the Bush Administration in this case?
BOYCOTT SONY
"I think the question now is not whether you went to Vietnam or whether you didn't, whether you fought in the war or fought against the war. I think the only question is whether we can find a president smart enough never to make a mistake like that again"--Molly Ivins, way back in 1992
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#15 2005-11-24 1:31 pm
- Tallgeese
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Re: Jose Padilla on trial
I'm wondering when we'll have another "Patriot Act" that creates a large body of laws that strip a citizen of all Constitutional protections if he's suspected of violating them.
I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.
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#16 2005-11-24 1:40 pm
- Ribtorus
- Member
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- Posts: 13747
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
I understood that evidence gained under torture is now admissable in U.S. military courts. I got the impression from the article that the issue wasn't the admissability of the evidence, but rather its reliability. This may be a case that illustrates how torture might be counter productive at a very basic level.
when surrounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
and the women come out to cut up what remains,
just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
and go to your god like a soldier...
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#17 2005-11-24 1:53 pm
- ShnickyShnack
- ::: title edited due to Satanic influences :::
- From: Rockin' out
- Registered: 2001-05-25
- Posts: 22237
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
D'Eyncourt wrote:
What is this talk about torture? Let's not get away from the central problem of the Padilla case. Here we have an American citizen who had been declared an "enemy combattant" and thus was placed in the custody of military justice and denied his US Constitutional rights (access to a lawyer, a reasonably quick trial, etc). From what I know of the case, Padilla isn't close to an angel but how does anyone justify these actions of the Bush Administration in this case?
Oh, I suppose we should buy him six weeks at Club Med, huh?
Note: please delete this post.
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#18 2005-11-24 2:29 pm
- [Tycho?]
- As Elusive As Doubt
- From: May the best sentience win
- Registered: 2000-06-19
- Posts: 3209
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
resedit wrote:
Ribtorus wrote:
There seems to be a suggestion that "harsh questioning" has yielded less-than-useful information to prosecute a suspected terrorist.
Yeah - giving them milk and cookies and a health club membership is a lot more effective.
What a wonderfully useful response.
I could bore you with a philosophical tirade about freedom and tyranny, or try and explain to you what new horizons are suddenly open to me, but I doubt you would understand and if you did it might frighten you. That amuses me.
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#19 2005-11-24 2:33 pm
- Tallgeese
- Sternly Advising
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- Registered: 2000-10-17
- Posts: 34092
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
ShnickyShnack wrote:
D'Eyncourt wrote:
What is this talk about torture? Let's not get away from the central problem of the Padilla case. Here we have an American citizen who had been declared an "enemy combattant" and thus was placed in the custody of military justice and denied his US Constitutional rights (access to a lawyer, a reasonably quick trial, etc). From what I know of the case, Padilla isn't close to an angel but how does anyone justify these actions of the Bush Administration in this case?
Oh, I suppose we should buy him six weeks at Club Med, huh?
As all good AM radio listeners know, the only options for prisoners are brutal torture or vacations at Caribbean resorts.
I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.
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#20 2005-11-24 2:33 pm
- Tetrachloride
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- Registered: 2001-01-29
- Posts: 7150
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
resedit wrote:
Ribtorus wrote:
There seems to be a suggestion that "harsh questioning" has yielded less-than-useful information to prosecute a suspected terrorist.
Yeah - giving them milk and cookies and a health club membership is a lot more effective.
I agree.
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#21 2005-11-24 2:40 pm
- hal9k
- Member
- From: Studio Apt. w/view in WMass
- Registered: 2005-02-25
- Posts: 1082
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
So, they're avoiding the SC.
They can continue without precedent.
After a while it'll be 'default' law.
"It was a bright cold day in April, and the clocks were striking thirteen."
On the whole, I'd rather be a h@m s@ndwich...
Last edited by hal9k (2005-11-24 2:46 pm)
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- the late Hunter S. Thompson
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#22 2005-11-24 6:05 pm
- Farmerkev
- Official Dementor
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- Posts: 18620
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
ShnickyShnack wrote:
Farmerkev wrote:
Tallgeese wrote:
res, stop being intentionally dense. Anyone who knows anything about interrogation knows that torture only results in people saying anything - true or not - to make it stop.
Be fair, it depends on what you're calling torture.
What's permissable for a prisoner in criminal cases according to US law?
Pretty much nothing, correct?
Rubber hoses are out but cooperate or you'll get the needle is still in play where the death penalty is still in effect.
Newsweek had a decent article about this not too long ago. While it's very correct that beating/maiming type torture doesn't work, the Brits and Israelis use duress quite effectively.
Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.
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#23 2005-11-24 6:10 pm
- hal9k
- Member
- From: Studio Apt. w/view in WMass
- Registered: 2005-02-25
- Posts: 1082
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
I suspect they might have some 'consultants' in our various CIA locales thru USSR gulags, others strewn across hell's half-acre.
"When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." -- the late Hunter S. Thompson
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#24 2005-11-24 8:45 pm
- user
- Your plastic pal who's fun to be with
- From: I'm not getting you down, am I
- Registered: 2001-10-15
- Posts: 16030
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
Joe Padilla on trial? 'Bout goddamn time.
People who lightly dimiss torture allegations on him need to remind themselves that he is an American citizen - what, you want to be next??
Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.
Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.
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#25 2005-11-24 8:47 pm
- Tallgeese
- Sternly Advising
- From: Pool Party
- Registered: 2000-10-17
- Posts: 34092
Re: Jose Padilla on trial
Oh yeah, like the government would arrest someone who wasn't guilty? You're just another "criticize America" liberal.
I still believe in liberalism today as much as I ever did, but, oh, there was a happy time when I believed in liberals.
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