Forums | MacLife

Thunderstruck · 2006-03-01 9:51 pm

The Core Duo is 5 years out of date? confused

Tom_N · 2006-03-01 9:51 pm

Mac hardware is slow, 5 years out of date and ridiculously overpriced.

Says the man who obviously has never heard of the current top of the line Power Mac G5, or the Intel-Core-Duo-based iMac.

For that matter, if you gave the iMac G5 an upgrade to a dual-core G5 chip, to the same graphics chipset found in the Intel iMac, and to the supported dual-monitor feature found in the Intel iMac, that machine would give the Intel one a run for its money. (Especially for anyone wanting to run games in Classic, or to use productivity applications that do not have Universal binaries yet.)

Phydeaux · 2006-03-01 10:04 pm

Tom_N wrote:
Hi. You're technically a DMCA violator, if the CD has copy protection.
If the "CD" has copy protection, then it is not a CD-Audio disc, and cannot bear the CD-Audio logo. So says Phillips -- the co-inventor of the CD format.

I assume they're referring to copy protection other than the SCMS flag, which standalone consumer digital audio recorders must obey and which computers are free to ignore.

I'm mostly referring to CD copy protection that is added on by third party software folk.

Like that rootkit during the big Sony scare.

Keeping that rootkit from installing on your PC was/is a violation of the DMCA. shrug

akb825 · 2006-03-01 11:34 pm

peepl_r_dum wrote:
Mac hardware is slow, 5 years out of date and ridiculously overpriced.

Now that's BS. You can't even say that's in dog years. The chips that the newest Macs use came out in mid January. The GPUs used in the newest Macs are very new, too. (for the Mactels, the iMacs use the X1600 as do the MacBook Pros. The PowerMacs have NVidia GeForce 6600s, and you can custom order a GeForce 7800 or even a Quadro) The prices are fairly competitive, too.

peepl_r_dum · 2006-03-01 11:48 pm

akb825 wrote:
peepl_r_dum wrote:
Mac hardware is slow, 5 years out of date and ridiculously overpriced.
Now that's BS. You can't even say that's in dog years. The chips that the newest Macs use came out in mid January. The GPUs used in the newest Macs are very new, too. (for the Mactels, the iMacs use the X1600 as do the MacBook Pros. The PowerMacs have NVidia GeForce 6600s, and you can custom order a GeForce 7800 or even a Quadro) The prices are fairly competitive, too.

Whatever. All I know is that I got a PC for the same price or less than the NEW Mac Mini and it still smokes it's ass. Plus, it came with a DVD burner, TV tuner, 6 USB ports, 3 firewire ports, S-Video in and out, composite and component video in and out and a slew of hardware. In the last few months, I've done more with this computer than I've done with my last three Macs. The OS is lacking but I suffer through and get REAL work done. People, I mean normal people, not geeks, are more concerned with bang for buck and do not care what's inside, as long as it works. Maybe the '5 year' comment is over the top but since Media Center has been out for two and TV tuners have been in PC computers for at least three, I'd say Macs, which have NO ability to record TV, dub analog video or even have a true digital out to a high definition monitor, out of the box, I can safely say, on a hardware level, at least in that category, they are behind.

akb825 · 2006-03-02 12:05 am

Steve hates TV, so there likely will never be a TV tuner in a Mac. I personally wouldn't ever use it, but I do realize that I am not like everyone else.

BTW, did you build you PC, or buy it from somewhere else? What are the exact specs?

resedit · 2006-03-02 4:10 am

Zetetic Apparatchik wrote:
I'm pretty sure that the methods involved to get it to work, break the DMCA.

Breaking the DMCA is bad?
Oops - I did it again ...

resedit · 2006-03-02 4:18 am

peepl_r_dum wrote:
Whatever. All I know is that I got a PC for the same price or less than the NEW Mac Mini and it still smokes it's ass.

I just priced a new system - what it would cost without using any old parts, sans shipping -

$858.61 from new egg.
That's case (a really nice case - $99.00 w/o PS), Power Supply (500W), mobo (nforce 4), cpu (Venice 3500+), 2GB Ram, PCI-X video (GeForce 6800 w/ dual dvi out), SATA hd (120 GB), DVD+/-RW, Floppy Drive

That's without an OS - and yeah, it kicks the snought out of a mac mini - but it doesn't have a TV-Tuner.

What I'm not getting for that money (and I'll probably re-use parts) is a quiet small form factor machine that would look good in my living room and woo the chicks. And I'm not getting an OS.

The mini could be (I think should be) $100 less - but it is not a bad machine.

Any sub $500 pc is going to have mediocre components.
Every one I have seen does anyway.

ReallyReallyLong LongName · 2006-03-02 6:25 am

Wow.. you people have spent a lot of energy arguing.

I started this thread with legal solutions like VPC but I guess everyone else had a different idea.

Anyway, we all would love Apple to make money. We just don't want to feel that we are getting ripped off at the same time. Before the switch, we had no other options than to buy Apple hardware. But, now we have many more choices to pick from (legal or not). The bottom line is, It's our money...

If we do not have to buy higher priced equipment then we won't. Its that simple. Apple will see that and they will either lower prices (yeah right), upgrade hardware (maybe), or lock down OS X to only Apple hardware (most likely.)

I'm sure the people that want things to "just work" will still buy Apple hardware. But there are others that don't want things to "just work." We want things to work better and faster... for less money at that. It doesn't mean I will never buy Apple hardware again. As long as it is well designed and meets my taste, I'd pay the extra money for the extra looks.

If Mac OS X was able to run on a PC out of the box, I'm sure people will pay the Disney/Apple World prices. If I saved $300 buying my own hardware, I'd happily shell out another $200-$250 for Mac OS X. That way everyone is happy. I'd have my high-end hardware and Mac OS X to boot. (...didn't mean for the stupid pun to happen.)

Well what if the hardware wasn't working properly with OS X, you ask? Well, then thats just my problem isnt it? Apple can even put on the box "We do not offer support to those not using Apple branded hardware!" I will still be OK with that because I know it would be much worse on Windows.

Apple would not have to support every PC on the market, every PC manufacturer would have to support Apple. See how much better that sounds?

resedit · 2006-03-02 7:17 am

In the old days - hardware and operating system were always bound together.
With the exception of some big unix vendors, Apple is really the last of the breed.

It is time they figure that out.
Their market share would tripple if they made the OS available for install on non Apple x86.

baldprof · 2006-03-02 7:50 am

Ahem....There's this review of the Mac Book Pro at ARS. If you examine the performance benchmarks, you'll note that one of the reference machines is a Dell laptop running Mac OS X 10.4.4. big_smile

MacBoy4139 · 2006-03-02 8:29 am

You people are going to break the law regardless of what argument I say.

As for whether it is breaking the EULA, the DMCA or local laws, it is illegal. You are circumventing copy protection on something.

If you feel the need to argue that paying $129 allows you to break the law, whatever. I'm obviously not going to stop you.

Whatever makes you people sleep at night.

resedit · 2006-03-02 8:43 am

MacBoy4139 wrote:
You people are going to break the law regardless of what argument I say.

As for whether it is breaking the EULA, the DMCA or local laws, it is illegal. You are circumventing copy protection on something.

If you feel the need to argue that paying $129 allows you to break the law, whatever. I'm obviously not going to stop you.

Whatever makes you people sleep at night.

The DMCA is a violation of our fair use rights.
If I pay for the software product, I may install it wherever I want it.

If I buy a DVD - and I buy a DVD-ROM drive for my computer - the DVD software that is licensed won't work in Linux, it only works in Windows. Yet it was part of the price for the DVD Drive.

When I put that DVD into my drive and libdvdcss cracks the encryption so that I can watch the movie, am I violating the DMCA? yes.

However, the purpose of the DMCA is to prevent pirating, if I'm not pirating squat - who cares?

Same thing with OS X.
If the copy of OS X was not legally obtained, yes - it is illegal.
If it was legally obtained, EULA's legally can not prevent you from installing it on whatever hardware you like. They call it a license, but previous court cases have determined it is a sale - not a license. As a sale, Apple can not tell me what I can do with it once I have purchased it - so long as I don't break the copyright by distributing it to someone else.

Just like the absurdity of watching a DVD in Linux is a dmca violation, it is absurd for Apple to hide their software behing the dmca.

I'm as anti-piracy as they come. But the DMCA imho is not a valid law. It is just a matter of time until it is thrown out.

You know that rootkit that Sony installed? Since it is a copy protection scheme - it is technically a violation of the dmca to remove it. The dmca is rediculous, and I will not allow it to interfere with my fair use of products I have purchased.

How do I sleep at night?
I generally don't. That's what the daytime is for.

resedit · 2006-03-02 8:47 am

If the dmca had a clause saying it was only applicable if breaking the encryption is done for the purpose of violating a law that would be broken by the action if there was no encryption - I would be happy with it.

Until it has that clause - it is meaningless to me.

MacBoy4139 · 2006-03-02 8:51 am

There is obviously no point in beating a dead horse here.

As for the Front Row bit - let's say the enabler wasn't out and freely available.

I wouldn't care.

Would I suddenly go out and buy a Mac that came with Front Row? No. Why? Numerous reasons. The main ones being:

1. I don't want a 15" laptop (I have a 17" and like it).
2. I don't want an iMac
3. Even if there was a 17" MacBook Pro out (with FireWire 800, which it has to have for me) Photoshop isn't a Universal Binary yet.

Will I buy a Mac that has Front Row built-in? Definitely. When? It all depends.

Until that happens, what I'm doing is not costing Apple a single penny. If I were enabling Front Row and avoiding a purchase of a new Mac because I didn't need to buy it to get Front Row, then yes, that costs Apple money.

If I buy OS X and install it on a PC, then yes that costs Apple money - I'm robbing them of the hardware sale, which is where they make the most money.

As I've said before - you are going to do whatever you are going to do.

resedit · 2006-03-02 8:58 am

If I buy OS X and install it on a PC, then yes that costs Apple money - I'm robbing them of the hardware sale, which is where they make the most money.

It is theire choice if they want to subsidize their OS sales with hardware sales.
Note that they sell the OS as stand alone, and do not require you to buy a new mac every time you buy a new OS. Thus - the OS is separate from the hardware.

MacBoy4139 · 2006-03-02 9:38 am

resedit · 2006-03-02 9:40 am

MacBoy4139 wrote:
http://browndailysqueal.com/archives/Be … -thumb.gif

You brought it up smile

peepl_r_dum · 2006-03-02 9:45 am

akb825 wrote:
Steve hates TV, so there likely will never be a TV tuner in a Mac. I personally wouldn't ever use it, but I do realize that I am not like everyone else.

BTW, did you build you PC, or buy it from somewhere else? What are the exact specs?

It was bought from somewhere. It was cheaper because it was a special but they have specials like this all the time. It's an Athlon X2 4800 chip. The price of the Mac Mini, with Superdrive, in Canada, is $949. The pric of the computer I bought was about that as well and it's loaded.

Not saying you are implying this but because Steve doesn't like TV is no reason for everyone to suffer without TV tuners. Does he also have an issue with media card slots as well? roll

resedit · 2006-03-02 10:09 am

peepl_r_dum wrote:
akb825 wrote:
Steve hates TV, so there likely will never be a TV tuner in a Mac. I personally wouldn't ever use it, but I do realize that I am not like everyone else.

BTW, did you build you PC, or buy it from somewhere else? What are the exact specs?
It was bought from somewhere. It was cheaper because it was a special but they have specials like this all the time. It's an Athlon X2 4800 chip. The price of the Mac Mini, with Superdrive, in Canada, is $949. The pric of the computer I bought was about that as well and it's loaded.

Not saying you are implying this but because Steve doesn't like TV is no reason for everyone to suffer without TV tuners. Does he also have an issue with media card slots as well?

USB media slots are better anyway - since they keep coming up with new types of cards.

resedit · 2006-03-02 10:15 am

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.a … 6819103544

The Athlon X2 4800 - just the cpu w/ HSF - is $630

Somehow I have a little bit of trouble believing your claim on that one.

Now if it was a 3800 I might believe it.

peepl_r_dum · 2006-03-02 10:24 am

resedit wrote:
peepl_r_dum wrote:
akb825 wrote:
Steve hates TV, so there likely will never be a TV tuner in a Mac. I personally wouldn't ever use it, but I do realize that I am not like everyone else.

BTW, did you build you PC, or buy it from somewhere else? What are the exact specs?
It was bought from somewhere. It was cheaper because it was a special but they have specials like this all the time. It's an Athlon X2 4800 chip. The price of the Mac Mini, with Superdrive, in Canada, is $949. The pric of the computer I bought was about that as well and it's loaded.

Not saying you are implying this but because Steve doesn't like TV is no reason for everyone to suffer without TV tuners. Does he also have an issue with media card slots as well?
USB media slots are better anyway - since they keep coming up with new types of cards.

I disagree and the attitude of "if Apple doesn't have it, it's not worth having" is what keeps many Apple fans without many great features. My PC has 4 different and most common media slots. My camera is 2-3 years old. Before getting this PC, I would have to fumble around with finding an open USB slot and have to unplug something from the keyboard or, heaven forbid, try to plug it in the back of the Mac Mini. I also had to make sure the batteries were charged and if they were not, recharge them or find new ones. Now, I remove the card, pop it in the front slot, the program to retrieve the pics starts up and in less time than it took to hook up my camera on the Mini, I've downloaded the pics to the PC. Before getting the PC, I was fully convinced that how I was doing things on the Mac was far better than the PC. It's what I believed since I started using Macs. Now, I believe there are better ways to do many of the things I used to think were so superior on the Mac. But I digress, the point of the thread was Mac OS X on a PC. I still contend that if Apple allowed the OS to be available for PC's, Microsoft would be out of the OS business in a heart beat.

kex215 · 2006-03-02 10:29 am

Yeah- once I saw the X2 4800 on there- definite BS. Price grabber shows the lowest price of 48 sellers as $620.
(Which would be $701 canadian)
No motherboard, video card, tv tuner, memory, dvd burner, hard drive, case, and power supply sale in the world would ever bring this system down to below mini prices. (You stated it was $949 CAN).

Last edited by kex215 (2006-03-02 10:31 am)

DevoDoc · 2006-03-02 10:50 am

resedit wrote:
If the dmca had a clause saying it was only applicable if breaking the encryption is done for the purpose of violating a law that would be broken by the action if there was no encryption - I would be happy with it.

The RIAA, MPAA, and other media groups filed a document with the US Copyright Office on February 2 entitled Exemption to Prohibition on Circumvention of Copyright Protection Systems for Access Control Technologies.

This document includes the following statement concerning the DMCA, which I find interesting:

"And to the extent that a film is in the public domain, and unaccompanied by other copyrighted material, � 1201(a)(1)(A) does not prevent [the consumer] from circumventing technological protections in order to copy the public domain material."

This would seem to imply that as long as you are not violating any other laws, the circumvention in and of itself is not illegal.

However, the document does go on to make some pretty eyebrow-raising statements. I'll paraphrase here for brevity, but here are some key highlights:

1. There's no need for you to disable any access controls on physical media because stand-alone players are cheap and readily available. In other words, we don't care if you can't play a DVD on your Linux box, you can go buy a DVD player for 50 bucks. (They do, however, grudgingly agree that just watching a DVD on your computer does not constitute infringement.)

2. Space-shifting and platform-shifting have not been established as non-infringing uses. Loosely translated, they want you to buy the same media over and over again. You have no right to rip tracks on a copy-protected CD so you can listen to them on your iPod. You should just go to iTMS and buy the tracks again.

3. Creating a back-up copy of a music CD is not a non-infringing use. While access controls may in some circumstances affect copying, the fact remains that there is no general exception to the reproduction right to allow back-up copying and thus no justification for allowing circumvention of access controls for this purpose.

peepl_r_dum · 2006-03-02 10:52 am

kex215 wrote:
Yeah- once I saw the X2 4800 on there- definite BS. Price grabber shows the lowest price of 48 sellers as $620.
(Which would be $701 canadian)
No motherboard, video card, tv tuner, memory, dvd burner, hard drive, case, and power supply sale in the world would ever bring this system down to below mini prices. (You stated it was $949 CAN).

I didn't build it, I bought it. I could send you a picture of the computer and the bill but I can't be bothered because I really don't give a damn whether you think I'm BS'ing or not. For arguement sake, here is a link to a similar computer, NOT on sale, for $1099, only $150 more than the Mac Mini and even with an Athlon X2 4200+, it still kicks Mini's ass. I got mine on a boxing day sale and it was a 2005 model, with 2006 models sitting in the back, ready to go on the shelves the next day. I got over $500 off the computer and monitor. You just gotta know where and when to shop. tongue

http://www.futureshop.ca/catalog/prodde … amp;catid=

Forums | MacLife

#51 2006-03-01 9:51 pm

Re: Mac OS on PC

#52 2006-03-01 9:51 pm

Re: Mac OS on PC

#53 2006-03-01 10:04 pm

Re: Mac OS on PC

Tom_N wrote:

#54 2006-03-01 11:34 pm

Re: Mac OS on PC

peepl_r_dum wrote:

#55 2006-03-01 11:48 pm

Re: Mac OS on PC

akb825 wrote:

peepl_r_dum wrote:

#56 2006-03-02 12:05 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

#57 2006-03-02 4:10 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

Zetetic Apparatchik wrote:

#58 2006-03-02 4:18 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

peepl_r_dum wrote:

#59 2006-03-02 6:25 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

#60 2006-03-02 7:17 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

#61 2006-03-02 7:50 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

#62 2006-03-02 8:29 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

#63 2006-03-02 8:43 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

MacBoy4139 wrote:

#64 2006-03-02 8:47 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

#65 2006-03-02 8:51 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

#66 2006-03-02 8:58 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

#67 2006-03-02 9:38 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

#68 2006-03-02 9:40 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

MacBoy4139 wrote:

#69 2006-03-02 9:45 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

akb825 wrote:

#70 2006-03-02 10:09 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

peepl_r_dum wrote:

akb825 wrote:

#71 2006-03-02 10:15 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

#72 2006-03-02 10:24 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

resedit wrote:

peepl_r_dum wrote:

akb825 wrote:

#73 2006-03-02 10:29 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

#74 2006-03-02 10:50 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

resedit wrote:

#75 2006-03-02 10:52 am

Re: Mac OS on PC

kex215 wrote:

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