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I think that he means faith inherently acts on human nature's insecure tendency. Some things require faith, but human nature in general wants proof.

Because it's true?

user wrote:

Tallgeese wrote:

Because it's true?

That's got to be the reason!

Never mind how old the earth really is.

The thing is, I see people getting upset when their religious beliefs are questioned. It could be because they don't want to think about it too hard. They're insecure, which is natural, because maintaining the conviction that things in the bible happened just as it says conflicts with what we know about the world. I'm seeing these kids challenging their instructors out of insecurity. They don't want to hear things that don't fit in with their world-view.

Pope John Paul II wrote:

How do the conclusions reached by the various scientific disciplines coincide with those contained in the message of revelation? And if, at first sight, there are apparent contradictions, in what direction do we look for their solution? We know, in fact, that truth cannot contradict truth... It is necessary to determine the proper sense of Scripture, while avoiding any unwarranted interpretations that make it say what it does not intend to say. In order to delineate the field of their own study, the exegete and the theologian must keep informed about the results achieved by the natural sciences

Some churches and their leaders admit that both science and religious doctrine can be erroneous.

Last edited by Tallgeese (2006-04-05 2:50 pm)

user wrote:

Sassy wrote:

...Adults can intellectually tell the difference, but emotionally, they can be as vulnerable as a child in a crisis or a threatening incident. You've heard the 'adage,' "There are no atheists in foxholes."

Ummm...good post, bad example, Sassy.

http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/about.php

People don't suddenly "get religion" because their lives are threatened.

Now I may have derailed my own thread....

You are right, of course. I used that quote because it is in common usage, but also because of my assertion that children from a very young age are indoctrinated by religious philosophy in this country. For example, the simple prayer: Now I lay me down to sleep, I pray the lord, my soul to keep. If I should die before I wake, I pray the lord, my soul to take. The words in that prayer are highly descriptive and powerful!

However, I stand by my statement that even adults who have doubts about religion as being 'truth' will call upon prayer -- something they've heard about most of their life -- to help them in a crisis. It's not faith, but fear and then hope that if there is a god, he will hear the prayer and help them.

All religious prayer is supplication for supernatural intervention in 'something' the prayer wants/needs. It is a 'begging' of sorts that a greater power will have mercy and grant the prayer. The word, pray, is even used in law as a supplication.

In another way, if the prayer is answered as requested, it becomes 'proof' for some, even many, that god heard the prayer and does, in truth, exist, acknowledges and loves them as individuals, just as the Bible teaches. Answered prayer is a powerful testament to god's existence and love. Unanswered prayer for some provokes anger, resentment and loss of faith.

As children most of us are taught by parents. Christian philosophy speaks of god as a wise and protective parent -- the father -- and when one pleases the father, he will grant us his good will, so it is in our best interest to cater to his will and obey his rules. If we do not, we are in jeopardy of the consequences, not from him, but from the way the world reacts to sin or disobedience. A good father 'guides' his children. He does not punish, but shows 'tough' love by allowing the world to teach the child if the child does not heed the parent's guidelines.

It's a good philosophy as far as it goes. Personally, my problem with 'church' and organized religion in particular is not the philosophy, but with the concept, the notion, that god proclaims 'a chosen' or elitist caste philosophy that creates division rather than unity. But, them's fightin words and a topic for another thread.

Oh, I thought Pro_ was pointing to the prayer research thread. I was just thinking about that this morning.

Sassy wrote:

In another way, if the prayer is answered as requested, it becomes 'proof' for some, even many, that god heard the prayer and does, in truth, exist, acknowledges and loves them as individuals, just as the Bible teaches. Answered prayer is a powerful testament to god's existence and love. Unanswered prayer for some provokes anger, resentment and loss of faith.

An interesting aspect about prayer is that it's set up so you can't lose.

If you pray for something and you get it, your prayer was answered.
If you pray for something and you don't get it, God has other plans for you.

The total effect is that you end up with same thing that you would have gotten if you didn't pray - if you didn't pray you might also get or not get the results that you want. You can't tell the difference!

It's not that hard to understand the power of prayer.  God doesn't  influence the physical outcome of events in this world.  But god can influence your heart, mind, and spirit to meet the demands of the world.  At least the god inside you can.

Sassy, as I see it, when you are scared nearly to death, with death all around you, when you are helpless in the face of all this, then you will look for help wherever it may be. Even an athiest will find God in a time like that. It doesn't necessarily mean a permanent conversion, but it can be a comfort for one in harms way.

sturner wrote:

StaticAge wrote:

user wrote:

Insecurity is the very nature of faith. One is trying to believe without evidence. Rational humans have to work hard at that.

How is believing without evidence displaying someone's insecurity? One would logically guess that someone who was insecure would need edify themselves with "proofs" and external evidence to validate their internal belief.

A person who is insecure in their faith will also act as these kids do, cause they don't know how to reconcille science with their beliefs.

Right, I'd agree with that. But off hand just saying that "insecurity is the very nature of faith" seems to say something else.

user wrote:

sturner wrote:

Sassy, as I see it, when you are scared nearly to death, with death all around you, when you are helpless in the face of all this, then you will look for help wherever it may be. Even an athiest will find God in a time like that. It doesn't necessarily mean a permanent conversion, but it can be a comfort for one in harms way.

Ummm, nope.

user wrote:

Sassy wrote:

...Adults can intellectually tell the difference, but emotionally, they can be as vulnerable as a child in a crisis or a threatening incident. You've heard the 'adage,' "There are no atheists in foxholes."

Ummm...good post, bad example, Sassy.

http://www.atheistfoxholes.org/about.php

People don't suddenly "get religion" because their lives are threatened.

Would you suddenly "find Jupiter" or "find Allah" in a life-threatening situation? I think I'd be too busy looking for a real way out - I surely wouldn't look for divine rescue.

I will admit I'd be likely to say, "oh God!" but it wouldn't mean anything more than when I said "oh, smurf!"

I wouldn't look for 'divine rescue,' but it seems your example of Allah might have a few takers.

You overlook my point, user, which is that from a very young age, most children -- note I did not say all, but I would say that a majority -- are influenced by the almost daily reminders of 'god' and the power of prayer in this country. All they have to do is look at a coin or a dollar bill. So, even those young people who may not acknowledge there is a god or even been to a church, might -- in a crisis situation -- utter a prayer out of desperation and fear of the unknown.

So, I would amend your statement: People don't suddenly 'get religion' because their lives are threatened.' to 'Some people'. You and I may react as you say. Folk who are relatively secure within themselves have confidence in their abilities to react in an appropriate way and will decide to live with the consequences if their choice is wrong. Other people are not. Some don't want to be and choose to 'trust' in god. It isn't a matter of weakness. It is a matter of choice. Besides, the Bible has an answer for all of us: God helps those who help themselves. Depends upon whom one trusts the most.

I don't think an atheist would convert, even temporarily.

Now, on the other hand, someone who does not practice and/or acknowledge religion, but who still has a belief in their mind from childhood - sure, they might convert.

Don't get me started on that unconstitutional (and some one say blasphemous) motto on our money!

user wrote:

I don't think an atheist would convert, even temporarily.

Now, on the other hand, someone who does not practice and/or acknowledge religion, but who still has a belief in their mind from childhood - sure, they might convert.

come to think of it, the athiests that I know dont really fear death, it is more of an accepted fact of life, but the Xians, well thats a different matter, they seem to fear death so much that the only way they can function in everyday life is to convince themselves they are semi-immortal(via the afterlife).

Last edited by Pro_ (2006-04-09 2:08 am)

well, the two times i have come close, it was more of an "ah crap there goes the car" feeling then an "OMG IM GONNA DIE" feeling.

Hey, whats wrong with appealing to your cultural magic icon when facing impending destruction?  "The Ultimate Survival Handbook" lists prayer as a mechanism for surviving free fall without a parachute.  It's not like your chances are going to get any worse.