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Cyberpawz · 2006-04-19 5:57 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co … 00743.html

I don't hear an outcry of how Mexico treats their illegal aliens... how about it people, you want 15,000,000+ illegal aliens to become US citizens or working citizens, then how about some outrage how Mexico treats their own illegal alien problem...

By MARK STEVENSON
The Associated Press?Wednesday, April 19, 2006; 8:28 AM

TULTITLAN, Mexico -- Considered felons by the government, these migrants fear detention, rape and robbery. Police and soldiers hunt them down at railroads, bus stations and fleabag hotels. Sometimes they are deported; more often officers simply take their money.

While migrants in the United States have held huge demonstrations in recent weeks, the hundreds of thousands of undocumented Central Americans in Mexico suffer mostly in silence.

And though Mexico demands humane treatment for its citizens who migrate to the U.S., regardless of their legal status, Mexico provides few protections for migrants on its own soil. The issue simply isn't on the country's political agenda, perhaps because migrants make up only 0.5 percent of the population, or about 500,000 people _ compared with 12 percent in the United States.

The level of brutality Central American migrants face in Mexico was apparent Monday, when police conducting a raid for undocumented migrants near a rail yard outside Mexico City shot to death a local man, apparently because his dark skin and work clothes made officers think he was a migrant.

Virginia Sanchez, who lives near the railroad tracks that carry Central Americans north to the U.S. border, said such shootings in Tultitlan are common.

"At night, you hear the gunshots, and it's the judiciales (state police) chasing the migrants," she said. "It's not fair to kill these people. It's not fair in the United States and it's not fair here."

Undocumented Central American migrants complain much more about how they are treated by Mexican officials than about authorities on the U.S. side of the border, where migrants may resent being caught but often praise the professionalism of the agents scouring the desert for their trail.

"If you're carrying any money, they take it from you _ federal, state, local police, all of them," said Carlos Lopez, a 28-year-old farmhand from Guatemala crouching in a field near the tracks in Tultitlan, waiting to climb onto a northbound freight train.

Lopez said he had been shaken down repeatedly in 15 days of traveling through Mexico.
"The soldiers were there as soon as we crossed the river," he said. "They said, 'You can't cross ... unless you leave something for us.'"

Jose Ramos, 18, of El Salvador, said the extortion occurs at every stop in Mexico, until migrants are left penniless and begging for food.

"If you're on a bus, they pull you off and search your pockets and if you have any money, they keep it and say, 'Get out of here,'" Ramos said.

Maria Elena Gonzalez, who lives near the tracks, said female migrants often complain about abusive police.
"They force them to strip, supposedly to search them, but the purpose is to sexually abuse them," she said.
Others said they had seen migrants beaten to death by police, their bodies left near the railway tracks to make it look as if they had fallen from a train.

The Mexican government acknowledges that many federal, state and local officials are on the take from the people-smugglers who move hundreds of thousands of Central Americans north, and that migrants are particularly vulnerable to abuse by corrupt police.

The National Human Rights Commission, a government-funded agency, documented the abuses south of the U.S. border in a December report.

"One of the saddest national failings on immigration issues is the contradiction in demanding that the North respect migrants' rights, which we are not capable of guaranteeing in the South," commission president Jose Luis Soberanes said.

In the United States, mostly Mexican immigrants have staged rallies pressuring Congress to grant amnesty to millions of illegal immigrants rather than making them felons and deputizing police to deport them. The Mexican government has spoken out in support of the immigrants' cause.

While Interior Secretary Carlos Abascal said Monday that "Mexico is a country with a clear, defined and generous policy toward migrants," the nation of 105 million has legalized only 15,000 immigrants in the past five years, and many undocumented migrants who are detained are deported.

Although Mexico objects to U.S. authorities detaining Mexican immigrants, police and soldiers usually cause the most trouble for migrants in Mexico, even though they aren't technically authorized to enforce immigration laws.
And while Mexicans denounce the criminalization of their citizens living without papers in the United States, Mexican law classifies undocumented immigration as a felony punishable by up to two years in prison, although deportation is more common.

The number of undocumented migrants detained in Mexico almost doubled from 138,061 in 2002 to 240,269 last year. Forty-two percent were Guatemalan, 33 percent Honduran and most of the rest Salvadoran.
Like the United States, Mexico is becoming reliant on immigrant labor. Last year, then-director of Mexico's immigration agency, Magdalena Carral, said an increasing number of Central Americans were staying in Mexico, rather than just passing through on their way to the U.S.

She said sectors of the Mexican economy facing labor shortages often use undocumented workers because the legal process for work visas is inefficient.

Hank Rearden · 2006-04-19 6:12 pm

That's quite interesting.

However, the Golden Rule still ought to apply to those with good ethics.

Hank Rearden · 2006-04-19 6:22 pm

Cyberpawz wrote:
The Golden Rule doesn't exist in politics or real life, and you know it.

Those who follow the Golden Rule in the political arena get burned.

It exists in my real life.

And the fact that it doesn't (usually) exist at the hands of the State is simply an indictment of the State...not a convenient excuse to use and endorse violence.

JakeTheTall · 2006-04-19 6:25 pm

Erm...but, like, I live and am a citizen of America, not Mexico.

Its not just the migrants that are treated poorly by the police and courts in Mexico...most the police and courts in Mexico are pretty dodgy.

Plus, who cares what they're doing in Mexico ?

ShnickyShnack · 2006-04-19 6:40 pm

As long as America's not as bad as the worst offenders in the world, it's doing fine. And as long as people complain about the behavior of the US Government without saving some ire for the worst offenders in the world, they're hypocrites.

See how it works?

D'Eyncourt · 2006-04-19 6:50 pm

ShnickyShnack wrote:
As long as America's not as bad as the worst offenders in the world, it's doing fine. And as long as people complain about the behavior of the US Government without saving some ire for the worst offenders in the world, they're hypocrites.

See how it works?

Rats! Beat me to it.

Hank Rearden · 2006-04-19 6:51 pm

ShnickyShnack wrote:
See how it works?

Oh. I get it. So all of that stuff about a "shining light on the hill? What was that nonsense all about?

ShnickyShnack · 2006-04-19 6:57 pm

Hank Rearden wrote:
ShnickyShnack wrote:
See how it works?
Oh. I get it. So all of that stuff about a "shining light on the hill? What was that nonsense all about?

No, that's fine, it still applies. As long as "shining light on the hill" equals "not torturing or killing as many people as ________."

Metacell · 2006-04-19 7:00 pm

Mexico sucks. What else is new. Why do you think they're coming here?

So, we could make America suck as bad as Mexico, then the'd have no reason. Or we could do what somebody's going to have to if they really wan't a solution, which is fix Mexico.

Hank Rearden · 2006-04-19 7:00 pm

ShnickyShnack wrote:
No, that's fine, it still applies. As long as "shining light on the hill" equals "not torturing or killing as many people as ________."

So, "shining a little brighter than a lot of other lights on various and sundry other hills" is the new motto?

ShnickyShnack · 2006-04-19 7:02 pm

Hank Rearden wrote:
ShnickyShnack wrote:
No, that's fine, it still applies. As long as "shining light on the hill" equals "not torturing or killing as many people as ________."
So, "shining a little brighter than a lot of other lights on various and sundry other hills" is the new motto?

Hell no! That's far too much realism. Fantasy plus cynicism is what we're going for here.

Hank Rearden · 2006-04-19 7:03 pm

Metacell wrote:
Or we could do what somebody's going to have to if they really wan't a solution, which is fix Mexico.

Is that a call for regime change? Call FOX NEWS! Operation Enduring Free Salsa is firing up!

Sassy · 2006-04-19 7:13 pm

Traveling in Mexico can be very scary. Before the boys grew up, we took a trip to Mexico City, rented a car and drove up to Taxco in the mountains. Spent about a week, and on our way back we were caught in a narrow mountain road block by a group of armed, rag-tag 'soldiers.' There were about 5 or 6 autos and a truck with wicker chairs ahead of us. We brought up the tail end. Finally, we reached the forward road block.

All the 'soldiers,' about 10 or so, had rifles. We don't speak Spanish, but their sign language was pretty explicit. They signaled to my husband to get out of the car. They hadn't done that with any of the autos ahead of us. He got out and I got scared. He was motioned to open the car trunk. He did. All that was in there was our luggage as we were headed back to Mexico City to the airport and our departure back to the States.

I stayed in the front seat trying to see what was happening through the side view mirror. The boys couldn't see anything because the trunk lid was open. I couldn't hear or see much either. The silence was driving me crazy. There was a soldier standing next to the door on my side of the car. He was watching me and what was going on at the back of the car. Finally, I spoke to him. He motioned for me to get out of the car. I did. I looked behind the car. One soldier was holding a rifle on my husband while the other was rummaging in the trunk. I thought he was going to steal something. That made me angry.

At that I marched to the rear of the car shouting for the rummage thief to get out of our stuff. The 'thief' looked up at me rather surprised. I kept ranting at him, telling him we were on our way to the airport and we were already late. My husband and the 'thief' stood there, dumbfounded, at my audacity. Usually, I'm usually pretty cool and friendly. But, the thought of that guy going through our stuff infuriated me. I stood there hands on hips and told him to get out of our stuff.

When I stopped to catch my breath, the 'thief' smiled at me and motioned for both of us to get back into the car. We did and glad to do so. They even made sure we rolled the windows up when we left. No problem.

When we arrived at the airport, I asked the ticketing agent what the problem was. He said the so-called soldiers were probably looking for contraband. That made sense. Never thought about that.

Anyway, it's a wonder those guys didn't flat out shoot all four of us. They could have and no one would have been the wiser. We were lucky. Just the same, it was a scary incident. We knew that 'gringos' sometimes disappeared in various parts of Mexico. It can be very dangerous.

Metacell · 2006-04-19 7:14 pm

Here's what we could do: provide legal working and residential visas for Mexicans provided Mexico updates and abides by infrastructural and human rights laws. A major problem of course, is how do we ask them to do it when we can't do it ourselves.

bedstuy · 2006-04-19 7:24 pm

Stop stashing heroin in the trunk of your car next vacation to a 3rd world country.

Oh, and when I was ever halted by soldiers in the DR I simply smiled and handed out some cash. Works like a charm... they will even watch your parked car for hours while you go shopping.

Pariah · 2006-04-19 7:37 pm

Yes, Mexico's government is hypocritical as hell.

Gosh, you'd think they would see the light an appreciate the economic boon lots of low wage, low skill workers are for a country...right?

resedit · 2006-04-19 7:39 pm

JakeTheTall wrote:
Erm...but, like, I live and am a citizen of America, not Mexico.

Its not just the migrants that are treated poorly by the police and courts in Mexico...most the police and courts in Mexico are pretty dodgy.

Plus, who cares what they're doing in Mexico ?

A lot of people here cared what they're doing in France and Germany etc. when we were going to war ...

[Tycho?] · 2006-04-19 8:02 pm

Yes, Mexico does suck.

Pariah · 2006-04-19 8:15 pm

Metacell wrote:
Here's what we could do: provide legal working and residential visas for Mexicans provided Mexico updates and abides by infrastructural and human rights laws. A major problem of course, is how do we ask them to do it when we can't do it ourselves.

I would never suggest we adopt Mexican style immigration control but I dont think it's unfair to say that Mexican President Fox ought to shut the smurf up with his demands when we are already treating his people 10 times better than his government treats people in the same situation.

Metacell · 2006-04-19 8:21 pm

I agree, Fox is a douchenozzle, and I am not in favor of amnesty, nor do I buy the old "its good for our economy" cop out. But being vindictive isn't going to make the situation any better. The only solution I can see to our problems is to find solutions to Mexico's problems.

Robert B. · 2006-04-19 8:40 pm

How astute you were to bring up this topic, Cyberpawz. Now, are you going to stop bitching and go to Mexico and actually do something about it?

dv · 2006-04-19 10:55 pm

Cyberpawz wrote:
Robert B. wrote:
How astute you were to bring up this topic, Cyberpawz. Now, are you going to stop bitching and go to Mexico and actually do something about it?
Don't need to, it is doing everything I could think of to itself. It is on the verge of collapsing from it's own corruption, what else can someone ask for?

Well, I like milkshakes.

bedstuy · 2006-04-19 11:02 pm

hmmm... corruption you say? Maybe when uber-leftist Lopez Obrador is elected in early July he'll clean up decades of PRI mess and Fox's ineffective new PAN party. Of course it might help more if that folks like Intel weren't locating to Costa Rica because they pay even less than Mexico.

Metacell · 2006-04-19 11:10 pm

Cyberpawz wrote:
Robert B. wrote:
How astute you were to bring up this topic, Cyberpawz. Now, are you going to stop bitching and go to Mexico and actually do something about it?
Don't need to, it is doing everything I could think of to itself. It is on the verge of collapsing from it's own corruption, what else can someone ask for?

Hey, you're right. No reason to do anything here in the USA either!!

So where does it go after it collapses? Will we also disappear into a magic vortex once we've 'taken care' of ourselves?

Robert B. · 2006-04-19 11:34 pm

Cyberpawz wrote:
Robert B. wrote:
How astute you were to bring up this topic, Cyberpawz. Now, are you going to stop bitching and go to Mexico and actually do something about it?
Don't need to, it is doing everything I could think of to itself. It is on the verge of collapsing from it's own corruption, what else can someone ask for?

Good thinking!

And where do you think all those Mexicans are going to go when it does collapse?

Last edited by Robert B. (2006-04-19 11:34 pm)

Forums | MacLife

#1 2006-04-19 5:57 pm

Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

#2 2006-04-19 6:12 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

#3 2006-04-19 6:22 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

Cyberpawz wrote:

#4 2006-04-19 6:25 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

#5 2006-04-19 6:40 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

#6 2006-04-19 6:50 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

ShnickyShnack wrote:

#7 2006-04-19 6:51 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

ShnickyShnack wrote:

#8 2006-04-19 6:57 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

Hank Rearden wrote:

ShnickyShnack wrote:

#9 2006-04-19 7:00 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

#10 2006-04-19 7:00 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

ShnickyShnack wrote:

#11 2006-04-19 7:02 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

Hank Rearden wrote:

ShnickyShnack wrote:

#12 2006-04-19 7:03 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

Metacell wrote:

#13 2006-04-19 7:13 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

#14 2006-04-19 7:14 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

#15 2006-04-19 7:24 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

#16 2006-04-19 7:37 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

#17 2006-04-19 7:39 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

JakeTheTall wrote:

#18 2006-04-19 8:02 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

#19 2006-04-19 8:15 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

Metacell wrote:

#20 2006-04-19 8:21 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

#21 2006-04-19 8:40 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

#22 2006-04-19 10:55 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

Cyberpawz wrote:

Robert B. wrote:

#23 2006-04-19 11:02 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

#24 2006-04-19 11:10 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

Cyberpawz wrote:

Robert B. wrote:

#25 2006-04-19 11:34 pm

Re: Mexico; Thy name is Hypocrisy.

Cyberpawz wrote:

Robert B. wrote:

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