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ShnickyShnack · 2006-06-01 2:14 pm

The marines went on a furious house-to-house rampage, say witnesses

They say Marines rampaged through a quiet street, bursting into homes and gunning down civilians, including children, women and an 89-year-old man in a wheelchair.

The accounts, gleaned from interviews conducted by Iraqi reporters for the Los Angeles Times in Baghdad and Haditha, appear to match details emerging from a military investigation into the deaths of 24 Iraqi civilians on Nov. 19. The Iraqi reporter in Haditha cannot be named for security reasons.

After the roadside bombing, the Marines arrived first at the door of Abdul Hamid Hassan Ali, 89, who had been using a wheelchair after his left leg was amputated. They shot him dead and then turned their guns on his three sons and their families, survivors said.

Waleed Abdul Hameed, 48, a worker in an Anbar religious-affairs office, was among the first of the family members to be gunned down.

His 9-year-old daughter, Eman, who survived, said she was wearing her pajamas when the Marines arrived. Her brother, Abdul Rahman, 7, also survived, and said he hid his face with a blanket when his father was shot.

Minutes later, the boy saw his mother fall to the ground, dying.

"I saw her while she was crying. She fell down on the floor bleeding," said the boy, who started crying, covered his eyes with his hands and began to mutter.

His older sister described how the two siblings waited for help.

"We were scared," she said. "I tried to hide under the bed." With shrapnel injuries to both legs, she lay still for two hours.

Around her, seven family members lay dead: Ali and his wife; their three sons and one daughter-in-law; and their 5-year-old grandson. Only one of the household's adults lived through that morning.

In the first moments of shooting, Hibba Abdullah snatched her 5-month-old niece off the floor.

The baby's mother had dropped her in shock after seeing her husband gunned down. Clutching the child, Abdullah scampered out of the house. She and the baby, Asia, both survived.

The baby's mother "completely collapsed when they killed her husband in front of her," she said. "I ran away carrying Asia [the baby] outside the house, but when the Americans returned they killed Asma, the mother of the child."

Safa Younis Salim, the 12-year-old, said she lay on the ground, covered with her sister's blood, and pretended to be dead while her family died around her. Her sister's blood spurted fast; it was like a water tap, she said.

Safa was withdrawn and reluctant to talk about the attack. Only after relatives coaxed her to speak did she describe how she played dead to stay alive that morning.

The Marines yelled in the faces of her family members before they shot them, she said. After they were shot, they kicked them and hit the bodies with their guns.

"I feel sorry. I was wishing to be alive," Safa said. "Now I wish I had died with them."

etcetera ...

The scary thing is how methodical it sounds. It's akin to My Lai, in which the soldiers, though angry and ferocious, were cool and calm enough to be as thorough as they could be (and cover up afterwards).

And if anyone's saying with a shrug, "well, this is the kind of smurf that happens in war," guess what -- you're right; it's why war should always be seen as a sick, savage, depraved activity that should be one only in the gravest circumstances, when there is absolutely no other choice.

JakeTheTall · 2006-06-01 2:23 pm

Moral Clarity!

Nefarious · 2006-06-01 2:27 pm

note to self: find out why Bush and Blair cancelled the troop drawdown roll

matt · 2006-06-01 2:33 pm

ShnickyShnack wrote:
<snip>

Are you saying you're with the terrorists? Because you're either with us, or you're with the terrorists.

sturner · 2006-06-01 3:13 pm

Well, we set a very bad precedent in 1946-49. We held war crime trials for people who did things just like this alleged incident.

We hung most of them.

We are bound by our own precedent.

Ain't morality just grand?

Robert B. · 2006-06-01 3:50 pm

The winners make the morality and the rules.

ShnickyShnack · 2006-06-01 3:51 pm

sturner wrote:
Well, we set a very bad precedent in 1946-49. We held war crime trials for people who did things just like this alleged incident.

We hung most of them.

We are bound by our own precedent.

Ain't morality just grand?

Good call.

Unless, of course, Nuremburg was what the Nazis always said it was -- victors' justice.

Hank Rearden · 2006-06-01 3:55 pm

Yes, massacres are horrific...pretty much by definition.

sturner wrote:
We hung most of them.

I highly doubt that there will be any hangings. Though, from the talk emanating from the White House, I suspect that some Marines will be in prison for much of the rest of their lives. And duely so:

A) actions like that, if proven, deserve to be punished very harshly, and
B) people who commit such actions are too dangerous to ever be let back into society.

Of course, the aggravating thing is that the government that allowed the development of a situation that messed up those kids so much that they did what they did will likely see no justice served on it.

ShnickyShnack · 2006-06-01 4:03 pm

This was successfully covered up for a time (as was My Lai) ... one can't help wondering how many other "unfortunate incidents" there have been (and will be).

El Light Borus · 2006-06-01 4:44 pm

This would be a good case for bringing back firing squads. Line these sick bastards up and let 'em have it. mad

StaticAge · 2006-06-01 5:39 pm

War has no morality.

Hank Rearden · 2006-06-01 6:27 pm

This article sums it up well:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/thenation/20060 … on/1588087

AAPL Shareholder · 2006-06-01 8:18 pm

New Massacre:
11 Civilians Allegedly shot in Ishaqi in March.
Video: http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/06/01.html#a8536

It sickens me on how numb I've become to smurf up after smurf up after smurf up.

bratboy · 2006-06-02 1:24 am

Poor us!

O'REILLY: Hi, I'm Bill O'Reilly. Thank you for watching us tonight.

Defending America, that's the subject of this evening's "Talking Points Memo." Predictably, the left-wing press has run with the alleged massacre at Haditha. Editorials across the country today, screaming about holding all of those involved accountable. People like Congressman John Murtha [D-PA], already convicting the military and the Bush administration. How depressing is that?

Once again, the actions of a few will be used to demonize the entire country. As Investor's Business Daily put it, quote, "The press is salivating over the prospect of an Iraqi My Lai."

But why? Why do so many rejoice when bad things happen to the USA? That's the key question here.

And the answer is that some Americans, including many in the press, honestly feel that the Bush administration is evil, and its policies have led to Abu Ghraib and now to Haditha. You'll see this line of thinking all over the place in the coming weeks, but that's like saying if one child turns out to be a criminal, the entire family's bad.

Link.

Alien · 2006-06-02 2:27 am

Hanged, not hung.

,xtG
.tsooJ

D'Eyncourt · 2006-06-02 4:29 am

AAPL Shareholder wrote:
New Massacre:
11 Civilians Allegedly shot in Ishaqi in March.
Video: http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/06/01.html#a8536

It sickens me on how numb I've become to smurf up after smurf up after smurf up.

Did you see the next story up from there?
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/06/01.html#a8537
Keith Olbermann tears O'Reilly and Fox new ones. Partial transcript from CrookAndLiars:

When you're **that** wrong -- when you're defending Nazi War Criminals and pinning their crimes on Americans, and you get **caught** doing so -- **twice** -- you're supposed to say 'I'm sorry, I was wrong'... and then you should shut up for a long time. Instead, Fox **washed** its transcript of O'Reilly's remarks Tuesday -- its website claims O'Reilly said "In **Normandy**..." when in fact he said "In **Malmedy**..."

The rewriting of past reporting -- worthy of Orwell -- has now carried over into such on-line transcription services as Burrell's and Factiva. Whatever did or did not happen **later**, in supposed or actual retribution... the victims at Malmedy, were **Americans**, gunned down while surrendering -- by **Nazis** in 1944 -- and again, Tuesday Night and Wednesday Night -- by a false patriot who would rather be loud than right.

"In Malmedy, as you know" Bill O'Reilly **said** Tuesday night, in some indecipherable attempt to defend the events of Haditha, "U.S. forces captured S.S. forces who had their hands in the air and were unarmed and they shot them dead, you know that. That's on the record. And documented."

The victims at Malmedy in December, 1944... were Americans. **Americans** with their hands in the air. **Americans** who were unarmed. That's on the record. And documented.

And their memory deserves better than Bill O'Reilly.

We **all** do.

There is an ironic link between this story and Joe McCarthy too.

Last edited by D'Eyncourt (2006-06-02 4:37 am)

Metacell · 2006-06-02 4:37 am

Yeah I saw the beginning of O'Lielly's pathetic apologist tirade. That guy really makes me want to vomit. Excuse us, but who put those kids in that situation to begin with?

Duke Stratosphere · 2006-06-02 11:27 am

Metacell wrote:
Yeah I saw the beginning of O'Lielly's pathetic apologist tirade. That guy really makes me want to vomit. Excuse us, but who put those kids in that situation to begin with?

Plenty of kids are in the same situation and are not slaughtering innocent civilians, so I think the perpetrators of this heinous crime are going to need a better defense at their trial than, "It's George Bush's fault, 'cause he started the war." hmm

ShnickyShnack · 2006-06-02 1:38 pm

Duke Stratosphere wrote:
Metacell wrote:
Yeah I saw the beginning of O'Lielly's pathetic apologist tirade. That guy really makes me want to vomit. Excuse us, but who put those kids in that situation to begin with?
Plenty of kids are in the same situation and are not slaughtering innocent civilians, so I think the perpetrators of this heinous crime are going to need a better defense at their trial than, "It's George Bush's fault, 'cause he started the war."

So there's no connection between decisions taken at the top and the ways in which this war has been waged? No connection between the legal and ethical depravity coming out of the White House summed up by a cheerful ditty called "How May We Violate the Geneva Convention/Let Me Count The Ways" and how the war is fought on the ground?

bratboy · 2006-06-02 1:43 pm

Ummm....I saw the photos of the victims of this thing. An infant with a bullet hole in the head?

eek

Yes Mr. O'Reilly, I think "screaming about holding all of those involved accountable" is appropriate.

Ribtorus · 2006-06-02 1:51 pm

I think it got lost in the 2004 server wipeout, but the topic of troop levels and the kinds of deployments did bring up the issue of having certain kinds of military units deployed for extended periods doing the kinds of duties they are not suited for.
Marines doing the occupation duties of regular army soldiers is one example of a misguided deployment. They are first wave assault troops, not intended for long term occupation jobs and I have no doubt that the civilian Pentagon leadership will come under fire for just this kind of decision making.

Canada encountered this ugly fact when the CAR (Canadian Airborne Regiment) did 'peacekeeping duties in Somalia. They should not have been there and it was obvious from the start. Fortunately the unit was dissolved as a result of Somalia and reconstituted with a new appreciaction for professional soldiering, and new leadership.

Duke Stratosphere · 2006-06-02 1:53 pm

ShnickyShnack wrote:
Duke Stratosphere wrote:
Metacell wrote:
Yeah I saw the beginning of O'Lielly's pathetic apologist tirade. That guy really makes me want to vomit. Excuse us, but who put those kids in that situation to begin with?
Plenty of kids are in the same situation and are not slaughtering innocent civilians, so I think the perpetrators of this heinous crime are going to need a better defense at their trial than, "It's George Bush's fault, 'cause he started the war."
So there's no connection between decisions taken at the top and the ways in which this war has been waged?

In the first place slaughtering civilians is not the way this war is being waged overall. If it was there wouldn't be very many of them left by now.

ShnickyShnack wrote:
No connection between the legal and ethical depravity coming out of the White House summed up by a cheerful ditty called "How May We Violate the Geneva Convention/Let Me Count The Ways" and how the war is fought on the ground?

I must have missed the part where the White House violated the Geneva Conventions. Do you have any solid evidence of that?

user · 2006-06-02 2:20 pm

Duke Stratosphere wrote:
In the first place slaughtering civilians is not the way this war is being waged overall. If it was there wouldn't be very many of them left by now.

What army are we fighting? Saddam's army was disbanded, so, yes we are attacking civillians.

I must have missed the part where the White House violated the Geneva Conventions. Do you have any solid evidence of that?

They didn't actually violate the GC, they just decided to redefine the POWs.

In fact, the WH stance is that they are NOT soldiers, therefore the GC does not apply.

Excuse me while go

Duke Stratosphere · 2006-06-02 2:52 pm

user wrote:
Duke Stratosphere wrote:
In the first place slaughtering civilians is not the way this war is being waged overall. If it was there wouldn't be very many of them left by now.
What army are we fighting? Saddam's army was disbanded, so, yes we are attacking civillians.

You know what I mean. Innocent civilians as in civilians who don't plant IED's beside the highway and strap suicide belts on and blow people up.

user wrote:
I must have missed the part where the White House violated the Geneva Conventions. Do you have any solid evidence of that?
They didn't actually violate the GC, they just decided to redefine the POWs.

In fact, the WH stance is that they are NOT soldiers, therefore the GC does not apply.

Excuse me while go http://homepage.mac.com/oatmeal/MAF/maxes/puke.gif

Which POW's are we talking about?

user · 2006-06-02 2:58 pm

Duke Stratosphere wrote:
Which POW's are we talking about?

Exactly.

Forums | MacLife

#1 2006-06-01 2:14 pm

This massacre thing is just horrific

#2 2006-06-01 2:23 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

#3 2006-06-01 2:27 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

#4 2006-06-01 2:33 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

ShnickyShnack wrote:

#5 2006-06-01 3:13 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

#6 2006-06-01 3:50 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

#7 2006-06-01 3:51 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

sturner wrote:

#8 2006-06-01 3:55 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

sturner wrote:

#9 2006-06-01 4:03 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

#10 2006-06-01 4:44 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

#11 2006-06-01 5:39 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

#12 2006-06-01 6:27 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

#13 2006-06-01 8:18 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

#14 2006-06-02 1:24 am

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

#15 2006-06-02 2:27 am

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

#16 2006-06-02 4:29 am

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

AAPL Shareholder wrote:

#17 2006-06-02 4:37 am

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

#18 2006-06-02 11:27 am

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

Metacell wrote:

#19 2006-06-02 1:38 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

Duke Stratosphere wrote:

Metacell wrote:

#20 2006-06-02 1:43 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

#21 2006-06-02 1:51 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

#22 2006-06-02 1:53 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

ShnickyShnack wrote:

Duke Stratosphere wrote:

Metacell wrote:

ShnickyShnack wrote:

#23 2006-06-02 2:20 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

Duke Stratosphere wrote:

#24 2006-06-02 2:52 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

user wrote:

Duke Stratosphere wrote:

user wrote:

#25 2006-06-02 2:58 pm

Re: This massacre thing is just horrific

Duke Stratosphere wrote:

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