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robco wrote:

Mel Gibson is fundy Catholic, not evangelical.  Evangelicals hate Catholics.

No we don't.
We disagree with a lot of their theology, but we get along with them just fine.
In fact, you'll often find catholics and protestants working side by side in social services. If a catholic church is big enough, they usually run their own programs - but even then, there often is an exchange of supplies as needs arise.

Pariah wrote:

They keep rewriting the story to fit the current situation.
Armageddon eminent list so far in my life:
1. The Arab/ Israeli war.
2. The breakup of the Soviet Union.
3. Y2K
4. Now this.

They just shuffle around the way they interpret the bible and give themselves another massive fundraising slogan.
Nice scam.

Well, the Arab Israeli war is still going on in a way. Putin's re-making Russia into a soviet type state. Y2K has some wiggle room over the actual birthday of christ. And of course, now we're back to the Arab Israeli war.  It's all coming together.

Armageddon is actually a very specific battle that will take place.

No one knows when the end will come except for the Father.
Jesus specifically said wars and rumors of wars etc. were not the end, only the birthing pangs. Thus - anyone who specifies a particular war as the end has already deviated from what the Bible says and therefore can not be trusted.

Israel being a nation again is a sign, but it is not the end.
For all we know, Israel could be scattered again before "the end" comes. There is no temple, and the anti-christ has not proclaimed himself to be god in the temple that hasn't yet been rebuilt.

I think it will happen within my lifetime. I would be a fool to say it will though, only the Father knows.

AAPL Shareholder wrote:

sturner wrote:

Whatever made you think that religion wasn't powerful in America? It has always had a very large shadow here.

I'd argue that fundamentalists and evanglicals didn't really start to become a political force until Carter's presidency. Not only were they a major reason for his getting elected, they became quite fired up during the whole public / private school funding thing. 

That and Roe... Roe really fired that group up.

The politicized and influential religious right has been a relatively new phenomenon.

Oh I don't know about that - there were far too many laws that only made sense in context of christianity dating to way further back than the 60s.

One example - the "one nation under God" I believe was a direct response to communism.

Last edited by resedit (2006-07-27 7:46 pm)

punkgeek wrote:

BUT...I thought the Jews killed Jesus?

No, silly, the Catholics did.
Just ask our friend Jack. He knows.

The Jews wanted him dead, no doubt about it. It was the Jews that brought him before Rome demanding his death, Rome found no crime against Rome, but they demanded it - and Rome conceded to prevent a riot (hence pilot washing his hands).

robco wrote:

Well, the Romans weren't exactly kind to Christians at first.  Then there was that about face, they became the Holy Roman Empire and well, kinda went downhill from there.  Theocracy is bad m'kay.

The only theocracy that will ever work is when God himself is directly in charge.
This was demonstrated clearly by the repeated failings of Kings of Israel - David was the best, but even he muffed up on numerous occasions, and did things contrary to the will of God.

America is not a theocracy, and despite propoganda that says so - Bush isn't trying to make it one.

Why would Bush be supporting a Muslim leader of Iraq if he was trying to run a "Christian" government?

No doubt christianity effects his sense of ethics, but everyones philosophy effects their ethics - and Bush not trying to establish a state religion. Separation of Church and State is still alive and well.

resedit wrote:

AAPL Shareholder wrote:

sturner wrote:

Whatever made you think that religion wasn't powerful in America? It has always had a very large shadow here.

I'd argue that fundamentalists and evanglicals didn't really start to become a political force until Carter's presidency. Not only were they a major reason for his getting elected, they became quite fired up during the whole public / private school funding thing. 

That and Roe... Roe really fired that group up.

The politicized and influential religious right has been a relatively new phenomenon.

Oh I don't know about that - there were far too many laws that only made sense in context of christianity dating to way further back than the 60s.

One example - the "one nation under God" I believe was a direct response to communism.

Many historians actually mark WW2 as the time when conservatism began to shift and embrace, among other things, religion and a less libertarian perspective. Yet that said, Carter's presidency certainly pulled a lot of evangelical christians into the political spectrum, let them down, and left them hanging politically active -- and pissed.

Between the Carter and Reagan presidencies fundamentalists really began to organize, lobby, and set the ground work for the political infrastructure they have today.

No doubt, you can't attribute anything to one isolated moment in time. Nevertheless, pre Reagan, pre Carter, and even pre WW2 conservative Christian political influence was absolutely nothing like what currently exists.

Last edited by AAPL Shareholder (2006-07-28 3:04 am)

You know, there use to be laws about businesses being closed on Sunday, or businesses only being allowed to sell necessary items on Sunday.

I'd like to see a comparison of how often God is mentioned in presidential speeches through the the history of this country, how often God is mentioned in the congressional record, how often he is mentioned is campaign speeches.

Sorry to burst your bubble - but no, religious influence on politics is nothing new.

I wonder how the greater Christian community in the Mid East feels about all this.

The Bishop of the Episcopal Church of Jerusalem writes:

http://www.j-diocese.com/DiocesanNews/v … 34#slbl234

Dear Friends,

For the past forty years we have been largely alone on this desert fighting a predator that not only has robbed us of all but a small piece of our historic homeland, but threatens the traditions and holy sites of Christianity. We are tired, weary, sick, and wounded. We need your help.

We have seen and we have been the recipients of the generosity of our American and British friends. We cherish the support of everyone throughout the world who stands with us in solidarity. Daily, I hear from many of them who express outrage at the arrogant and aggressive positions of President Bush, Secretary Rice, Senator Clinton, and Prime Minister Blair. I am saddened to realize just how much the deserved prestige of the United States and Britain has declined as a result of politicians who seem to devalue human life and suffering. And, I am disturbed that the Zionist Christian community is damaging America’s image as never before.

Little more than a week ago, we were focused on the plight of the Palestinian people. In Gaza, four and five generations have been victims of Israeli racism, hate crimes, terror, violence, and murder. Garbage and sewage have created a likely outbreak of cholera as Israeli strategies create the collapse of infrastructures. There is no milk. Drinking water, food, and medicine are in serious short supply. Innocents are being killed and dying from lack of available emergency care. Children are paying the ultimate price. Even for those whose lives are spared, many of them are traumatized and will not grow to live useful lives. Commerce between the West Bank and Gaza has been halted and humanitarian aid barely trickles into some of the neediest in the world.

Movement of residents of the West Bank is difficult or impossible as “security measures” are heightened to break the backs of the Palestinian people and cut them off from their place of work, schools, hospitals, and families. It is family and community that has sustained these people during these hopeless times. For some, it is all that they had, but that too has been taken away with the continued building of the wall and check points. The strategy of ethnic cleansing on the part of the State of Israel continues.

This week, war broke out on the Lebanon-Israeli border (near Banyas where Jesus gave St. Peter the keys to heaven and earth). The Israeli government’s disproportionate reaction to provocation was consistent with their opportunistic responses in which they destroy their perceived enemy.

In her recent article, “The Insane Brutality of the State of Israel,” American, Kathleen Christison, a former CIA analyst says, “The state lashes out in a crazed effort, lacking any sense of proportion, to reassure itself of its strength.” She continues, “A society that can brush off as unimportant an army officer’s brutal murder of a thirteen year old girl on the claim that she threatened soldiers at a military post (one of nearly seven hundred Palestinian children murdered by Israelis since the Intifada began) is not a society with a conscience.” The “situation” as it has come to be called, has deteriorated into a war without boundaries or limitations. It is a war with deadly potential beyond the imaginations of most civilized people.

As I write to you, I am preparing to leave with other bishops for Nablus with medical and other emergency supplies for five hundred families, and a pledge for one thousand families more.

On Saturday we will attempt to enter Gaza with medical aid for doctors and nurses in our hospital there who struggle to serve the injured, the sick, and the dying.

My plan is that I will be able to go to Lebanon next week - where we are presently without a resident priest - to bury the dead, and comfort the victims of war. Perhaps as others have you will ask, “What can I do?” Certainly we encourage and appreciate your prayers. That is important, but it is not enough. If you find that you can no longer look away, take up your cross. It takes courage as we were promised.

Write every elected official you know. Write to your news media. Speak to your congregation, friends, and colleagues about injustice and the threat of global war. If Syria, Iran, the United States, Great Britain, China and others enter into this war - the consequence is incalculable. Participate in rallies and forums. Find ways that you and your churches can participate in humanitarian relief efforts for the region. Contact us and
let us know if you stand with us. I urge you not to be like a disciple watching from afar.

2 Corinthians 6.11:
“We have spoken frankly to you Corinthians, our heart is wide open to you. There is no restriction in our affections, but only in yours. In return - I speak as to children - open wide your hearts also.”


In, with, and through Christ,

The Rt. Rev. Riah H. Abu El-Assal
Anglican Bishop in Jerusalem

There's some pretty inflammatory claims the Bishop makes.

Last edited by Ribtorus (2006-07-28 7:10 am)

resedit wrote:

Armageddon is actually a very specific battle that will take place.

No one knows when the end will come except for the Father.
Jesus specifically said wars and rumors of wars etc. were not the end, only the birthing pangs. Thus - anyone who specifies a particular war as the end has already deviated from what the Bible says and therefore can not be trusted.

Israel being a nation again is a sign, but it is not the end.
For all we know, Israel could be scattered again before "the end" comes. There is no temple, and the anti-christ has not proclaimed himself to be god in the temple that hasn't yet been rebuilt.

I think it will happen within my lifetime. I would be a fool to say it will though, only the Father knows.

Isn't the end near when the walls from Israel are surrounded (from every corner) with only enemy's and the biggest quake ever seen which puts the main trading city from the world in ashes..

It's looking to get there soon....

1One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters. 2With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries."

3Then the angel carried me away in the Spirit into a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns. 4The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and was glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls. She held a golden cup in her hand, filled with abominable things and the filth of her adulteries. 5This title was written on her forehead:
      MYSTERY
      BABYLON THE GREAT
      THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES
      AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. 6I saw that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of those who bore testimony to Jesus.

   When I saw her, I was greatly astonished. 7Then the angel said to me: "Why are you astonished? I will explain to you the mystery of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and ten horns. 8The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.

9"This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. 10They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. 11The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.

12"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

15Then the angel said to me, "The waters you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. 16The beast and the ten horns you saw will hate the prostitute. They will bring her to ruin and leave her naked; they will eat her flesh and burn her with fire. 17For God has put it into their hearts to accomplish his purpose by agreeing to give the beast their power to rule, until God's words are fulfilled. 18The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

So what I´m guessing is that right now you see a battle between the prostitute (US, EU) and the beasts (iran, iraq, syria etc).
So there is no good SIDE right now, evil fighting evil....

Last edited by Proost (2006-07-28 10:50 am)