Forums | MacLife

volk · 2006-08-17 11:23 am

My Biege G3 is finally dead. I am now in need of a new Mac. I have considered an iMac for some time now, but I just can't justify the cost for the AIO. The Mac Pro is what I would like, but is too rich for my blood. I have considered a mini, but dissapointment over the built in video has made me reluctant to do so.

This pretty much leaves me in the realm of used Power Macs, and more specifically, G4's. I don't want to spend much money on an outdated machine, but the G4 has become a very reasonably priced machine with better graphics than the mini can offer. A decent G4 can be had for well under $400. I have no experience with OS X on the G4, so I really don't know which models to avoid, how OS X performs on them, which version of OS X to run, etc. My thought is to keep this machine until all the software I depend on goes native, and then upgrade to the Intel chips.

Any suggestions from Power Mac G4 owners on this would be appreciated. Is the G4 really up to the latest versions of OS X, or is this a waste of money?

chuckaeronut · 2006-08-17 11:36 am

The new Intel mini will outperform ANY G4, and the onboard video can be equated to, say, about a Mobility Radeon 9000 or 9200. They're similar in performance; apparently the GMA 950 in the mini is vastly improved from the 900s in older Intel chipsets. Plus, the CPU in that mini is so screaming unbelievably fast compared to any G4 that, since the onboard video offloads acceleration to the CPU, it's actually, surprisingly, completely indistinguishable from dedicated video when doing 2D stuff in the OS, and completely not that bad doing 3D stuff. And coming from a beige G3, it'll kick the crap out of all your expectations. It will kick the crap out of any $400 G4, regardless of whether the video is onboard or not. The G4 is definitely up to OS X, but only if it's faster than, say, 1GHz. Even then, it'll be VASTLY slower than even the slowest, single processor mini. I'd go with the Dual 1.66 mini. It will be worth the extra $100 for the extra core.

Zetetic Apparatchik · 2006-08-17 11:48 am

Despite the bad feeling of lack of upgradability, I'd suggest the mini myself. But I'm using a 1GHz PowerBook with a 1GB of RAM (and a "video card" that would like me to call it GeForce 4MX 440 Go) and I don't tend to find it irritating or anything running Tiger.

Temetka · 2006-08-17 12:51 pm

Since you destroyed any argument for a G4 tower, your stuck with the mini. However if you wanted you could:

Buy a Quicksilver.
Get a Dual CPU card @ 1.8GHz from OWC
Max the ram
Go sata w/300GB HD
Get a nice Nvidia or ATI AGP card.

However that's way beyond your $400 limit, actually encroaching on the costs of an older 1.6GHz G5 machine. Although I can't actually see you getting ANY mac for $400 unless you buy some old DA tower and do absolutely no upgrading on it whatsoever. Which would be pointless.

toadkiller · 2006-08-17 1:13 pm

Not to mention the mini has a warranty, at least for a year, and comes with the latest OS and iLife for "free". Also, wireless is built in which would drive up the cost of a older computer too.

As for G4's. I'm typing on a 1.2 ibook and my wife is in the other room running a 1.5 dual Cube (upgraded). They both run Tiger, iLife, and the usual suspects just fine, albeit not at max zip.

I wouldn't sell either Mac for $400 either.

So, in short, you could get a G4 that would serve your needs but it isn't probably in your best interests to do so. Unless you fall into a super deal.

volk · 2006-08-17 2:35 pm

The mini would be great, but it gets really expensive quickly when you are starting from scratch. The cost of a dual 500 G4 is $345. You can get a dual 1.25 G4 for $999, and it has expansion capabilities plus firewire 800. Similarly configured, the mini weighs in at $1,051. The G4 won't have wireless built in, but I have no need for it anyway. Ram for the G4 is cheaper than it is for the mini, processor upgrades up to 1.8Ghz are available, including dual CPU upgrades. Video upgrades are modest on the G4, but the mini has zero video upgradeability, not to mention having to use external HD's via firewire. The mini has a definite speed advantage and is the best path for the future, but until Photoshop, Freehand, et all are ported to Intel, the mini's speed advantages are pretty much negated.

The mini may still be the best choice, but I think the scenario is a little more complicated than just "the mini is quicker". Is the G4 OS X experience really THAT painful?

toadkiller · 2006-08-17 4:15 pm

A dual 500 isn't going to run photoshop as well as a mini I wouldn't think.

Don't forget the refurb page either - good deals available there.

Personally, despite having upgraded my cube, I think the whole expansion thing is overrated for most folks - because most people simply don't use it.

Aqua OS X · 2006-08-17 4:52 pm

toadkiller wrote:
A dual 500 isn't going to run photoshop as well as a mini I wouldn't think.

You wouldn't think? I think you meant "would" wink

The old dual G4s are good machines. I was using a dual 450 for design for up until last year. I finally sold it because I desperately needed portability.

I sold it with a butt load of ram, an extra optical drive, an extra harddrive, Bluetooth, and an upgraded GPU for $400. I'm sure you could find an even better deal then that now.

Moreover, design on a single core intel box would be somewhat painful. My old G4 may not have completed a rotate as fast as a G5, but at least it had another CPU. The one thing I can't stand about my PowerBook is the lack of a second processor or second processor core. It feels slower to me because I can't multitask as well.

If I had to chose between an old $600 dually G4 and a $600 single core Mini, I'd take the Dual G4.

car121_007 · 2006-08-17 6:25 pm

Sometimes you can find very nice machine with gobs of RAM for cheap.

If you can snag a dual 867 or 1.25 cheap I'd do it. Radeon 8500 if you can get one cheap, RAM is a no brainer and you can throw 4 disks in, makes a nice server when your done with it for design.

Shadowless · 2006-08-18 12:25 am

Remember, you can upgrade the CPU to a Core 2 Duo down the road. I'd buy the single-core for now and up the RAM. Then later on upgrade to the sweet Core 2 processors when you have the cash.

Also to restate what toadkiller said, the refurb section is your friend. You could probably find a really nice G5 iMac for cheap if you wanted to stick to full-sized HDs and a real graphics card. Also, easy to find cheap minis there too.

Pros of the mini:
Warranty!!
Processor upgradability (hasn't even close to peaked!)
TINY form factor
Will run today's software perfectly well
Will run tomorrow's software perfectly well

Pros of the G4:
More onboard HD space
Real graphics cards
Processor upgradability (peaked long ago)
Will run today's software perfectly well (but that's it)

Avari · 2006-08-18 4:08 am

I still use my Dual 500mhz G4 on a daily basis. I use my mac for everything except gaming and its been going strong since 1999. The only reason i will part with it is to get an macbook when Rev 2 comes out.

dv · 2006-08-18 7:20 am

fwiw, I have a 1.5GHz PPC mini. It's plenty of machine for 99% of the people out there, especially if you're coming from a G3. An intel mini would be an excellent investment.

If you really want expandability, might as well get the mini anyway - sell it when you've saved enough for a mac pro or a newish G5. There's no point buying used equipment past a certain age - some of those G4s are going on 6 years old, and have had plenty of time and opportunity to be abused.

pcguy · 2006-08-18 7:55 am

Shadowless wrote:
Remember, you can upgrade the CPU to a Core 2 Duo down the road. I'd buy the single-core for now and up the RAM. Then later on upgrade to the sweet Core 2 processors when you have the cash.

The ability to upgrade cpu on your own with a Mac is not a given for a average person, it is not the socket but rather how Apple might lock down their logicbroad.

volk · 2006-08-18 9:25 am

The mini is definitely a compelling choice. I'm not sure that I would hang my hat on being able to upgrade it's processor. I don't know what heatsink and other requirements will mean to the mini's smaller form factor. If only Apple had a mid-range tower....this would be an easy choice.

volk · 2006-08-18 9:34 am

dvpierce wrote:
fwiw, I have a 1.5GHz PPC mini. It's plenty of machine for 99% of the people out there, especially if you're coming from a G3. An intel mini would be an excellent investment.

If you really want expandability, might as well get the mini anyway - sell it when you've saved enough for a mac pro or a newish G5. There's no point buying used equipment past a certain age - some of those G4s are going on 6 years old, and have had plenty of time and opportunity to be abused.

What about the original mini? Some retailers are now selling some decently priced packages with the original G4 mini at quite a bit less than the $1,050 Apple wants for the Core Duo mini, before looking at a monitor. I want to be able to run Photoshop, Freehand, and Final Cut Express. Is the PPC mini going to handle that? Is the G4 mini capable of booting Classic from within OS X?

chuckaeronut · 2006-08-18 3:14 pm

If you need classic, no Intel Mac will cut it for you. You'd need PPC for that.

Macskeeball · 2006-08-18 4:22 pm

chuckaeronut wrote:
If you need classic, no Intel Mac will cut it for you. You'd need PPC for that.

False. You can use SheepSaver.

Also, someone has already upgraded their mini to a Core 2 Duo.

Czachorski · 2006-08-18 7:42 pm

Aqua OS X wrote:
My old G4 may not have completed a rotate as fast as a G5, but at least it had another CPU. The one thing I can't stand about my PowerBook is the lack of a second processor or second processor core. It feels slower to me because I can't multitask as well.

If I had to chose between an old $600 dually G4 and a $600 single core Mini, I'd take the Dual G4.

I know what you mean. I did this on my dual 867 G4. And look at the upper-right corner - still only at 58% CPU with the expose, and not even using up all my RAM. It is a great machine for multi-tasking. Rock solid.

Shadowless · 2006-08-18 10:53 pm

Czachorski wrote:
... I did this on my dual 867 G4. And look at the upper-right corner - still only at 58% CPU with the expose, and not even using up all my RAM. It is a great machine for multi-tasking. Rock solid.

I don't even know if I have that much stuff on my computer!

Blandford Fly · 2006-08-19 1:56 pm

I've just sold my 867 G4. Ok, it wasn't as fast as the Mac mini I just got, but, in it's defence, it was hugely upgradeable - graphics card, SATA/IDE controllers, USB 2, Firewire 800, etc. I had four drives, a DVR-111D Superdrive, USB 2...

OK, the Mac mini kicks its arse, but does that matter? A few seconds here or there is all we're talking about, and the Mac mini is very limited in terms of upgrades.

I sold my G4 for �450. I'd added over �200 worth of drives, AirPort, USB 2, so it actually made a seriously good buy. I'd say, look for a G4 Dual rather than a single just to give it an edge - a dual 867 would be a good start and probably at Mac mini price.

Blandford Fly · 2006-08-19 2:09 pm

Here you go, a load of them (I'm assuming you're in the U.S)

http://search.ebay.com/dual-867_W0QQfkrZ1QQfromZR8

This one looks nice.

Last edited by Blandford Fly (2006-08-19 2:10 pm)

volk · 2006-08-19 3:33 pm

Blandford Fly wrote:
I've just sold my 867 G4. Ok, it wasn't as fast as the Mac mini I just got, but, in it's defence, it was hugely upgradeable - graphics card, SATA/IDE controllers, USB 2, Firewire 800, etc. I had four drives, a DVR-111D Superdrive, USB 2...

OK, the Mac mini kicks its arse, but does that matter? A few seconds here or there is all we're talking about, and the Mac mini is very limited in terms of upgrades.

I sold my G4 for �450. I'd added over �200 worth of drives, AirPort, USB 2, so it actually made a seriously good buy. I'd say, look for a G4 Dual rather than a single just to give it an edge - a dual 867 would be a good start and probably at Mac mini price.

Did you replace it with an Intel mini, or a G4 mini?

adamjg · 2006-08-19 4:10 pm

I'm running a DA 533 G4 that I'm happy with. I paid $200 but had to furnish the HD, DVD/CD drive, RAM, and Video card. It did come with a Adaptec 2940 Ultra SCSI card. Getting ahold of that stuff is no big deal; if you deal with the used market (like me) you can find some good deals on stuff. I got a used nvidia Geforce2 MX card for $20 (Craigslist), and a 40 Gig drive for $15 (Flea Market). I got OS X 10.3, 4 DVDs with extra applications for $40 from a local seller. The G4 DA runs Panther real well and I like having dual boot capabilities since I have older OS 9 applications to run as well. The whole point of buying stuff this way is to save money. A lot of individuals just want to get rid of their old stuff, so you can sometimes negotiate the price down. Businesses are another story. I'm wary about some of the prices I see for "refurbished" equipment online.

Tower machines in general have lots of interior room for expansion and they're sturdily built too. Mine has 4 PCI slots and 1 AGP, and has the space to run 4-6 internal drives. You should decide what your needs are first and whether you need a high level of internal expanability or not, before you buy.

Be careful and try to scruitinize used stuff before you buy or you can get duds. I've been doing this for a while and occasionally would get stuff that doesn't work right. Used hard drives can sometimes die, but most solid state stuff like Video, USB, and SCSI cards usually works. I'm not planning to spend a lot more on upgrades, but I might look for a processor upgrade from 1 GHZ or higher if the price is right. I know about OWC already, but I might try Craigslist to find a used one from a local seller first.
big_smile

Last edited by adamjg (2006-08-19 7:31 pm)

toadkiller · 2006-08-19 5:51 pm

Are we being astroturfed? I've never seen so many posts about "FUD we need a consumer tower".

Funkey Monkey · 2006-08-19 5:58 pm

Ah jeez, you guys. I think we sometimes get a little ahead of ourselves when we're giving out advice. I'm happily typing away right now on a Blue and White tower upgraded to a G4 500 mhz. And it's quite sufficient! Of course, I have no interest in shoot-em-up games, so my idea of sufficient may differ from yours.

But I regularly edit audio and video with this machine, and iMovie, iDVD and even Final Cut Pro all run effectively. (True, they're not as fast as a new machine, but they're fast enough.)

And I just got an old iMac 233 this week--I'm amazed how much life is still left in that thing! I've got it dual booting Xubuntu Linux and OS 9.2.2, and it runs a Playstation Emulator much better than either my G4 or my old Gateway PC.

So, total cost? I got the B&W Tower for free from work. (But they can be had for less than $100 on eBay.) I upgraded to a 500 mHz G4 for $118 from OWC. The RAM was maxed at 1 GB when I got the machine. I added a PCI ATA/133 card for $50 and two 160 GB hds for $60 each.

Total cost? Less than $300 (even if you hypothetically pay for the computer.)

And I'm currently selling a G3 tower on Craigslist for TWENTY BUCKS! So, my conclusion is that it's perfectly possible to build a perfectly acceptable system for under $400.

Oh yeah, and I put in a Radeon 7000 video card for $35. (But it didn't make a HUGE difference... but it did allow me to run THREE monitors on this machine, which I'm doing right now.)

Forums | MacLife

#1 2006-08-17 11:23 am

Going old school with the G4?

#2 2006-08-17 11:36 am

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#3 2006-08-17 11:48 am

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#4 2006-08-17 12:51 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#5 2006-08-17 1:13 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#6 2006-08-17 2:35 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#7 2006-08-17 4:15 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#8 2006-08-17 4:52 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

toadkiller wrote:

#9 2006-08-17 6:25 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#10 2006-08-18 12:25 am

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#11 2006-08-18 4:08 am

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#12 2006-08-18 7:20 am

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#13 2006-08-18 7:55 am

Re: Going old school with the G4?

Shadowless wrote:

#14 2006-08-18 9:25 am

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#15 2006-08-18 9:34 am

Re: Going old school with the G4?

dvpierce wrote:

#16 2006-08-18 3:14 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#17 2006-08-18 4:22 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

chuckaeronut wrote:

#18 2006-08-18 7:42 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

Aqua OS X wrote:

#19 2006-08-18 10:53 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

Czachorski wrote:

#20 2006-08-19 1:56 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#21 2006-08-19 2:09 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#22 2006-08-19 3:33 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

Blandford Fly wrote:

#23 2006-08-19 4:10 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#24 2006-08-19 5:51 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

#25 2006-08-19 5:58 pm

Re: Going old school with the G4?

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