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I'm more than a little disgusted that many here want to blame Bush for not propping up a dictator and paying his blackmail.
NK is a third world hell hole with millions starving while this nutjob spends what little money they have on his military.
Multi-country talks aren't good enough, he wants one on one with the US.
What he wants is US money to keep himself in power.
smurf him. Starve him and his military of everything and let the people revolt. Then they can re-unify with SK and have a decent future.

Farmerkev wrote:

I'm more than a little disgusted that many here want to blame Bush for not propping up a dictator and paying his blackmail.

....so is the carrot & stick approach always inappropriate, or just inappropriate here?

Do you support this country's current approach to foreign relations (ie, keep communication open with friendly states and completely cut off others)?

smurf him. Starve him and his military of everything and let the people revolt. Then they can re-unify with SK and have a decent future.

Will that happen soon?

bratboy wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

I'm more than a little disgusted that many here want to blame Bush for not propping up a dictator and paying his blackmail.

....so is the carrot & stick approach always inappropriate, or just inappropriate here?

Do you support this country's current approach to foreign relations (ie, keep communication open with friendly states and completely cut off others)?

smurf him. Starve him and his military of everything and let the people revolt. Then they can re-unify with SK and have a decent future.

Will that happen soon?

Inappropriate when dealing with a man like this, the carrots would only allow him to get stronger, not weaker.
How many more decades do you want this to go on?
Reunification will never happen if we prop up his regime.
It's time the world took him out.

Tallgeese wrote:

And just who in the world is going to "take him out"?

If the support he is getting now is all that's keeping him in power then removing that would  take him out.

ShnickyShnack wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

I'm more than a little disgusted that many here want to blame Bush for not propping up a dictator and paying his blackmail.
NK is a third world hell hole with millions starving while this nutjob spends what little money they have on his military.
Multi-country talks aren't good enough, he wants one on one with the US.
What he wants is US money to keep himself in power.
smurf him. Starve him and his military of everything and let the people revolt. Then they can re-unify with SK and have a decent future.

Too bad you don't work at the State Department, they could use your advice. If nothing else you might be able to shed them of the habit of uttering pathetically hollow threats every two seconds.

Personally I think it's not for America to decide which governments should and shouldn't exist. The North Korean government is there and it's not going away. Yes it's evil as hell, but too bad. Why punish an entire population through sanctions and isolation for having a government that oppresses them savagely?

I'm fine with that.
If the world wants to deal with him then they can.
The US can certainly stay out of it both diplomatically and financially.

Farmerkev wrote:

I'm more than a little disgusted that many here want to blame Bush for not propping up a dictator and paying his blackmail.
NK is a third world hell hole with millions starving while this nutjob spends what little money they have on his military.
Multi-country talks aren't good enough, he wants one on one with the US.
What he wants is US money to keep himself in power.
smurf him. Starve him and his military of everything and let the people revolt. Then they can re-unify with SK and have a decent future.

Yeah we can do anything because we're the United States, the world's only superpower. Go USA.

The starving North Korea to the point of collapse scenario is just another absurd right-wing fantasy. Just because you want it to be so doesn't make it possible.

China and South Korea will never let it happen. Neither of them want a nuclear North Korea, but both fear millions of starving refugees coming over their borders worse.

South Korea wants eventual reunification, but realize a Germany-style one would just destroy their country.

The only hardliners in this issue are the people who won't face any negative consequences from the Pyongyang regime collapsing.

Farmerkev wrote:

Tallgeese wrote:

And just who in the world is going to "take him out"?

If the support he is getting now is all that's keeping him in power then removing that would  take him out.

Obviously Little Kim (as Bill Maher calls him) has been escalating the situation the more we ignore them and put the screws to them with sanctions.  I'm positive that before they'd actually collapse, North Korea would attack either Japan or South Korea, even if it is just a feint to try and force us to the table.  If it turned out to be a real fight, South Korea is not ready for the mass of uneducated and starving humanity that would head their way after the fight.  A German reunification it would not be.  On the other hand, China may be ready to risk North Korea collapsing because:

(1) they would have no qualms against turning back refuges
(2) the wouldn't mind seeing an area competitor's economy take a hit like Germany's did and slow down South Korea's economy
(3) they wouldn't mind offloading the costs of taking care of North Korea's populace to the West
(4) it eliminates having to worry about having North Korea, South Korea or Japan having/getting nukes
(5) if a fight goes down, our military is again hit with costs the nation can ill afford leading to a hit to the military budget down the line

My guess:  We'll be pleasantly suprised to see China going along with serious sanctions.

jeremiah256 wrote:

Farmerkev wrote:

Tallgeese wrote:

And just who in the world is going to "take him out"?

If the support he is getting now is all that's keeping him in power then removing that would  take him out.

Obviously Little Kim (as Bill Maher calls him) has been escalating the situation the more we ignore them and put the screws to them with sanctions.  I'm positive that before they'd actually collapse, North Korea would attack either Japan or South Korea, even if it is just a feint to try and force us to the table.  If it turned out to be a real fight, South Korea is not ready for the mass of uneducated and starving humanity that would head their way after the fight.  A German reunification it would not be.  On the other hand, China may be ready to risk North Korea collapsing because:

(1) they would have no qualms against turning back refuges

China already turns back refugees in droves. The ones who manage to stay do so by living underground, on the run from police.

(2) the wouldn't mind seeing an area competitor's economy take a hit like Germany's did and slow down South Korea's economy

China lives in terror of instability. And South Korea is a strong market for their goods.

(3) they wouldn't mind offloading the costs of taking care of North Korea's populace to the West

Sounds a bit odd to me.

(4) it eliminates having to worry about having North Korea, South Korea or Japan having/getting nukes

China doesn't worry about the Koreas. Japan, though, is another story entirely. North Korea having nukes won't change anything, but if Japan goes nuclear you'll likely see many Asian countries following suit, like South Korea, hell, who knows, Taiwan, Indonesia ...

(5) if a fight goes down, our military is again hit with costs the nation can ill afford leading to a hit to the military budget down the line

There will be no fight. The only country even remotely interested in kicking ass is the US and the resources just aren't there to do much of anything beyond firing the odd cruise missile.

My guess:  We'll be pleasantly suprised to see China going along with serious sanctions.

My guess is not. The US has wanted sanctions for years, the thinking being a truly starving population will change the regime and make America happy. But China doesn't want the government to fall and won't do anything to endanger it. Quite the contrary, China might start to apply real pressure for direct US-North Korea talks.

"Unnamed sources" theorize it was a neutron bomb

Willett said the unconfirmed information that Monday's device was a neutron bomb -- as reported by Reuters from a source close to the North Korean government -- was an intriguing possibility.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlene … ticlePage1

My My they will print anything these days. Score another point for the "high level anonymous source"

Last edited by Steyr AUG (2006-10-10 12:06 am)

ShnickyShnack:

Point 2: good point but while it would hit South Korea hard economically, with the low price of China goods, the average South Korean might be forced to buy MORE cheap Chinese goods...it's possible their products would gain more South Korean market share.

Point 3: I was referring to aid to the North Korean people.  China is giving substantial aid to North Korea but much of that could be turned over to the non-government agencies that don't now have complete access and are mostly Western enities.

As for China's going along with sanctions: link1, and link2

Steyr AUG wrote:

"Unnamed sources" theorize it was a neutron bomb

Willett said the unconfirmed information that Monday's device was a neutron bomb -- as reported by Reuters from a source close to the North Korean government -- was an intriguing possibility.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlene … ticlePage1

My My they will print anything these days. Score another point for the "high level anonymous source"

I think you need to work on your bbcode. link to Reuters's article

While a neutron bomb would be handy for all sorts of nefarious things-- including scaring people, wiping out the Seoulans while keeping Seoul around, etc-- a neutron bomb is a fairly advanced design.

jeremiah256 wrote:

We have obligations via treaties, not to mention economic interests in the area.

Keeping a steady supply of cheap crap consumers don't really need to keep the WalMarts full isn't enough to justify military intervention.  We should honor treaty commitments, but no more than that and we should be working for either a reunified Korea, or a self-sufficient South Korea.  The long-term goal should be no US troops stationed on foreign soil in peacetime.