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Thinking outloud on a slow day. Hmm…

Backstab:
Normal hit = [(Weapon Damage + {Current AP*1.7/14})*1.5+(Current Backstab rank bonus damage)]*(1+0.04*Opportunity Rank)
Critical hit = Normal hit *(2+0.06*Lethality Rank)

Evicerate:
([Evis min damage]+AP*0.15) - ([Evis max damage]+AP*0.15)

Considerations
• Crusader Main Hand
• Felstriker offhand
• Fang of the Faceless: 66-123, (49.7), 1.9, +1% crit, +28 AP
• Perdition's Blade: 73-137, (58.3), 1.8, Chance on Hit fire dmg. 40-56

Raddyn
• 30.7% Normal Crit
• 754 AP with Faceless
• 726 AP with Perdition
• Backstab Bonus: Crit +30%
• Daggers Specialization: Crit +5% (is this figured into the base stat?)
• Improved Evicerate: +15% Damage
• Malice: Crit +5% (is this figured into the base stat?)
• Lethality: +30% damage on BS if I crit
• Seal of Fate: 100% chance of additional combo point on crit hit

Last edited by iBubba (2006-11-08 3:50 pm)

The only concern I have/had about swapping is the AP bonus of Fang for Evicerate.

edit: Okay, I am sure I am wrong (math not being a strong suit and I'm not totally trusting the equations I found at wowwiki), but it looks like if I max crit with Perdition + a Crusader proc on a backstab with my current gear and stats I can hit for 1510.47?

Also, I recall reading something about diminishing returns on Agility for rogues past 300 Agi. Is there any truth to this?

Last edited by iBubba (2006-11-08 4:02 pm)

I got Perd and FoF...Perd MH and FoF in OH. Tho sometimes I switch in Brutality blade in OH. Really going from FoF to Perd in main really boosted my dmg totals a lot. DPS alone cannot be touched easily tho I have noticed that Brutality in MH catches up to Perditions when your AP is over 1200 so it does seem that there is some deminishing happening to me but its not agility based. Max i've had Perd at has been about 165DPS with over 1500AP and at that high it was hitting as hard as a sword but 2x as fast.

I actually use my Evis also at times even while being in dagger mode. Sometimes I can get some nice crits but its not often. When I switch to my sword set I am of course doing Evis more.

I see a lot of rogues with the Perdition/CHT combo but if you've got FoF, dont need CHT. Got better on FoF than you do on CHT. Only real difference is .2 sec faster + some minimal stamina and 8 less AP between FoF and CHT.

The AP on FoF is worth ~2 DPS, and Perditions Blade has 9 more base DPS.

Thats really all you need to know...

crkfc wrote:

it's really hard to compare a sword and a dagger since your main attacks are very different. i agree that if you have FoF, you dont need CHT. the dps difference is minimal and is almost made up by the extra 8 AP. your spec actually matters a lot more for a dagger rogue in a PvE setting. not having opportunity and lethality can really hurt your dmg output.

just wondering, what spec are you guys currently?

for raiding, i've been 17/28/6 but just switched to 15/31/5 to try out AD.

Check my sig - CT_Profile

crkfc wrote:

there is no deminishing returns for agi.

Correct.

crkfc wrote:

and why are you using evicerate as a dagger rogue?!

... If he's Seal Fate Eviscerate is a perfectly fine finisher, I think you're confusing a normal CP/E rotation of Combat Daggers (some veriant of 15/31/5) to a completely different build.

Odin wrote:

The AP on FoF is worth ~2 DPS, and Perditions Blade has 9 more base DPS.

Thats really all you need to know...

No.

crkfc wrote:

you'll probably get higher white dmg with harbinger of doom and higher Backstab dmg overall, but Perdition's still hits harder. pretty much the best MH dagger you can get until C'thun and Naxx.

No.

Sigh I wish these forums had PM capabilities...

Basically, Odin thats incorrect, although dps does contribute signifcantly to direct damage done by a rogue, both top, and low end damage ranges especially in the Dagger catagory make a much more significant difference then the actual dps of the weapon.

crkfc, your dagger assesment is quite incorrect. The Blessed Qiraji Pugio, is a significantly better main hand then the Perdition's Blade, and believe it or not so is the Harbinger of Doom from Naxx trash. Top end damage means a lot, but it does not make or break which weapon is the best.

Now, to answer your original question iBubba:

Yes you should be main handing a Perdition's Blade if you have access to such a weapon, however, your offhand will very depending on what your spec is currently. From your CTProfile you have the Fang, and a Felstriker. Two very nice viable options. If you enjoy Seal Fate, meaning some derivitive of (31/5/15, 30,8,13 ect) I would main hand your Perdition's Blade, and offhand your Felstriker. The raw dps difference on the weapons (Fang and Fel) is so minimal that your seal fate build will see an incredible increase over the Fang, if you're using Felstriker due to the proc, and the additional cp generated because of it.

If you plan on some veriant of 15/31/5, ie your "Adren rush Combat Dagger" build, (and I would advise against a build like that with your gear currently) then I would be offhanding your Fang, due to the higher damage range (think white damage here) and the fact that the proc, from Felstriker won't be giving you near the benifit it would if you were Seal Fate.

I'm currently 15/31/5 with a Death's Sting and Harbinger of Doom, and I used my Pugio+Harb, as well as the trusty ol, Perdition's + CHT for a long... long... long time. Basically man, You have the opportunity for a nice set up, because you have the two best offhands avalible for your gearing range (for a dagger spec). Fang, and Felstriker. Depending on what spec you like, choose the apropriete offhand.

As far as enchants goes, (and I can dig the math up if you guys want it) Crusader is the best main hand enchant for any weapon, warrior or rogue.  For a dagger rogue, the only enchant that comes close to crusader (in my gear 8 dps behind it) is +5 weapon damage. However due to the cost, and the minimal difference (healing from Crusader aside) I usually just tell my new recruits to put +5 on, until they have the money for a crusader enchant, or if they are just cheap bastards, go with +5 permently.  As far as your Fang's enchant, I wouldn't worry about replacing crusader, just use it until a newer better offhand rolls around. The dps difference is marginal for offhand enchants, so it really isn't worth wasting the money.

If you have anymore questions fire away. ;p

crkfc wrote:

a however, math is theoretical. your actual output will differ. such as, the math doesnt factor in back to back crusader procs, which severely decreases its benefits by resetting the +100 str buff's timer. the heal is even harder to put a price on. it can save your life or be wasted if you are at full health. i'm a fan of the +5 dmg enchant due to its consistancy. i can dig up some math that will say it is better if you'd like but really, they're just numbers.  math ftl, imo.

Math is not theoretical. You can correctly and accurately model both the uptime and the sustained benifits of the Crusader enchant. I suppose I should have specified, +5 is more reliable damage in a pvp situation, where as crusader will outpreform +5 in pve. And since I'm going to ask you to post the math on +5, when I get finished here working, I'll find the math Kalman and Chalon did when designing the Rogue CP/E and DPS equip spreadsheet for accurate proc modeling and post it as well. Or, you can do a search on the EJ forums for Enchant dps and it will come up with the same thing.

I apologize but I tend to believe two mathmaticians who've spent months modeling rogue gear, weapons, and enchants, and trust my experance in playing a rogue since crusader was implemented ;p. And ask around I think it shows.

Last edited by christophillis (2006-11-10 1:11 am)

here's what a friend of mine came up with in regards to rogue weapon enchants:

Being one of the primary guild enchanters I find myself in discussions with people over "what enchant should I get!” so I decided to make a post about it. If you aren’t into number crunching I suggest scrolling to the bottom.


First off, lets lay out some constants.

1 DPS = 14 Attack Power
1 Str = 2 AP, 20 Agi = 1% Crit (Warrior)
1 Str and 1 Agi = 1AP, 29.5 Agi = 1% Crit (Rogue)

Now, when figuring damage it is easiest to use DPS and convert everything into DPS so you have a common basis of comparison. We already know that 14 Attack Power = 1 DPS, so for a rogue 14 strength is also equal to 1 dps. But what about 14 agility? Agility adds to both crit and AP (as well as dodge but for this discussion we are only going to worry about damage output). So, we need to be able to convert a critical strike, into a DPS value. The way we do this is by looking at talents and your average hit. I’m going to assume all rogues have the talent “Lethality 5/5” This increases the crit bonus of special attacks by 30%. Since only about 50% of a rogue’s attacks are special attacks I’m going to put the bonus at 15%. Now, you need to find your average hit of both special attacks, and normal hit. Lets say you are a dagger rogue with perdition’s blade MH and CHT off hand with about 800AP (all of these calculations are made unbuffed). Your average MH hit will be for about 180-220 damage; your OH will be between 110-130.
Now, your average backstab will be about 550 non-crit. So 200 MH (every 1.8 sec) + 120 OH (every 1.6 sec) damage is 360 every 1.7 seconds or 211 DPS of non-crit white damage. The backstab will hit on an average of every 2.4 seconds assuming it is being spammed. So this is 550 damage every 2.4 seconds or 230 DPS of non-crit yellow damage. This means a rogue is doing 440 DPS without critting. But what we really want to know is how much does 1% crit affect DPS. Well now that we have an average normal hit we see how that will be affected. 1% crit means that there is a 1% chance that a normal hit will do 200% damage and a special hit will do 230% damage. So we say 211 DPS * 1% * 1 = 2.1 DPS For auto attack(100% INCREASE in damage, even though it is doing 200% damage it is only being increased by 100%) . For backstab it is doing 230 DPS * 1% * 1.3 = 2.9 DPS increase. So total it is a 6DPS increase for 1% crit with this setup of daggers.

Now we can say that 1 agility is 1/30th of a crit and 1 crit is 6dps that is an average of .2 dps per agility before factoring in the AP. Remember 14 Agility = 1 DPS so if we factor crit and AP into 1 value agility = .0914 dps. Now lets recap on what we know:

1 Agility = .2714 DPS. ([1/30 * 6] + 1/14)
1 Strength = .0714 DPS (1/14)
1 % Crit = 6 DPS
14 AP = 1 DPS

So, which enchant suits you best? Here are your options:

This assumes you have an average crit of 25% base and 60% with backstab:

Crusader: 5% chance to increase your dps by 7.14. Assume up 20% of the time = 1.428 average dps
15 Agility: Permenantly increases your DPS by 4.07 (per enchant)
15 Strength: Permenantly increases your DPS by 1.07 (per enchant)
+5 damage MH: Increases your DPS 3.38 for auto attack, Increase backstab DPS by 5.74 (1.8 Speed dagger) Average DPS increase 4.56.
+5 damage OH: Increases your DPS 2.93 (1.6 Speed Dagger)

your link to the EJ site is borked but i found the forums and post i think you are referring to. the one about the combat dagger spread sheet? i checked a through a couple pages and found little regarding +5 dmg. i've used the spreadsheet and the difference in crusader vs 5dmg is about .5 dps unbuffed, about 1dps buffed. still, these are just theoretical numbers and your mileage may vary. i guess it also depends on gear.

Last edited by crkfc (2006-11-09 4:43 pm)

crkfc wrote:

your link to the EJ site is borked but i found the forums and post i think you are referring to. the one about the combat dagger spread sheet? i checked a through a couple pages and found little regarding +5 dmg. i've used the spreadsheet and the difference in crusader vs 5dmg is about .5 dps unbuffed, about 1dps buffed. still, these are just theoretical numbers and your mileage may vary. i guess it also depends on gear.

Link is corrected, apologies.

The combat dagger/combat swords sheet is indeed what I was referring to. And you are correct, the difference is marginal, and yes it does depend on gear. (As I said earlier) The math you showed above is totally based on gear however, so those numbers will infact change based on each individual rogue's current getup. If you download the newest version of pf/chalon/kalman's spreadsheet found here you can see the exact values for your stats, in relation to what they are equal to in dps. The math is the same, except it takes no assumptions, and uses your gear in the math.

Found the link to what I was going to post. http://www.radiationnow.net/wow/enchant.xls (note rogue only, its not modeled for warriors) It assumes 10% +hit when it does the Crusader uptime calculation, though, so that will vary slightly with your +hit percentage. (Note the enchant calculation in the dps spreadsheet linked first, is the same math shown here but again using your current gear (+hit) to model the uptime so will likely be more accurate then this sheet.)

When crusader procs, you're getting a 100 AP gain.

+5 damage for a Perdition's Blade is the equivalent of 2.78 DPS, or 38 AP, but only on your main hand. Even with Seal Fate daggers spec, white damage is roughly 40-45% of your overall damage. Thus, you are really only getting 38 * 0.6 = 22.8 effective AP out of +5 damage. Thus if the Crusader buff is up at least 20% of the time, you are gaining more out of it. Since Crusader is a proc/min enchant...

...the way it seems to work is that the game internally converts it to a chance on hit percentage, with that percentage defined by the speed of the weapon and the "ideal" PPM, such that if all you do is autoattack, and all your autoattacks were hits, you'd get that many PPM.

Instant attacks are PPM independent.

The amount of instant attacks you get is fixed by your build.  The percentage of those attacks that proc are dependent on the weapon speed.  Thus, for a slower weapon, you're getting more procs out of the same number of instant attacks.

E.G.

Lifestealing on a Brutality Blade vs. Lifestealing on a AQR.  Lifestealing being a 6 PPM enchantment, we can derive the game's internal chance on hit as follows:

chance on hit = 6/60*weaponspeed

BBcoh = 25%
AQRcoh = 28%

But, we still have the same fixed number of sinister strikes, whichever weapon we use, so we can expect roughly 12% more procs out of the slower weapon's instant strikes, which translates to roughly 2.5-3% more procs overall.

With Crusader, procs do overlap.  Uptime changes as a function of weapon speed, percentage of time you keep SnD up, and +hit.  For the purposes of the spreadsheet, the numbers used were 100% SnD, 10% +hit, and roughly 2.75 hours worth of simulated attacks.


Basically the summery of all that remains the same. +5 is cheap, although slightly less dps, Crusader is more expensive and slightly more dps, and a heal. Pick what works best for you.

Last edited by christophillis (2006-11-10 1:39 am)

Yes, but then I wouldn't be able to take advantage of this information on my rogue.

Decisions, decisions…

I'm still w/o Perdition's, but I did get CHT (and Blastershot Rifle) last night. My current build, however, is with Felstiker off-hand - which is yummmie. Thoughts?

iBubba wrote:

Decisions, decisions…

I'm still w/o Perdition's, but I did get CHT (and Blastershot Rifle) last night. My current build, however, is with Felstiker off-hand - which is yummmie. Thoughts?

Hmm. I would MH PB / OH CHT, and look for a Striker's Mark.