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::kicks user in the udders::

Get a stall, you two!

Five smurfing pages. 104 posts. And no one has posted the link to the original article? We're going soft.

For the record, here's the the relevant part, minus the elision.

JS: In Berlin there are lots of gay clubs with lots of gay men and sexy straight men and women. I find it much more sexy.

EJ: I just find it more human. We should all be together. I've got this really naive idea of what life should be like - it's an idealistic idea but it's completely integrated. We can't keep thinking of gay people as being ostracised; we can't keep thinking of Muslim people as being [ostracised] because of the fundamentalism that occurs in Islam. Muslim people have to do something about speaking up about it. We can't judge a book by its cover.

From my point of view I would ban religion completely, even though there are some wonderful things about it. I love the idea of the teachings of Jesus Christ and the beautiful stories about it, which I loved in Sunday school and I collected all the little stickers and put them in my book. But the reality is that organised religion doesn't seem to work. It turns people into hateful lemmings and it's not really compassionate.

The world is near escalating to World War Three and where are the leaders of each religion? Why aren't they having a conclave; why aren't they coming together? I said this after 9/11 and people thought I was nuts: instead of more violence why isn't there a [meeting of religious leaders]. It's all got to be dialogue - that's the only way. Get everybody from each religion together and say 'Listen, this can't go on. Why do we have all this hatred?'

We are all God's people; we have to get along and the [religious leaders] have to lead the way. If they don't do it, who else is going to do it? They're not going to do it and it's left to musicians or to someone else to deal with it. It's like the peace movement in the Sixties - musicians got through [to people] by getting out there and doing peace concerts but we don't seem to do them any more. We seem to be doing fundraisers for Africa and everything like that but I think peace is really important. If John Lennon were alive today he'd be leading it with a vengeance..

oatmeal wrote:

Ra wrote:

oatmeal wrote:

Yes it can does.



I'm not sure where he's going with that either.  Religion can only be good?  By that yardstick, when Mayans were sacrificing humans by tearing out their hearts, that was good, right?  Satanism is good, right?  When worshipers of Baal threw their children to their deaths in pits, it was all hunky-dory? 

And what about Osama Bin Laden's religion?  Islam, so they say, is a religion of peace.  Is the way he practices it good?

Well, that's true in relation the the mayans and the others you have mentioned. However, I assumed that Elton was not referring to the Mayans (I didn't read the article), but to Christianity as an institution. I would think that the Christian religion, is good. The problem is not with religion itself, but with the humans who in the name of religion stray from the right path.

Elton John didn't state that he would ban Christianity, he said, "From my point of view, I would ban religion completely. Organized religion doesn't seem to work. It turns people into really hateful lemmings, and it's not really compassionate."

But even if he had, statement was that "religion is can only be good."  Not that "Christianity is can only be good."  I replied to that.

If you're trying to say that "Christianity is can only be good," then once again let's discuss the Crusades, the Spanish inquisition, witch hunts, northern Ireland, Hitler's religious upbringing... shall we go on?

No. No need to go on, since I understand what you are saying. What I have said, however, is that it's the human behind any religion the one who is bad, not the religion itself.

Hank Rearden wrote:

Jaligard wrote:

The guy was a professed Christian.

Maybe.  Maybe not.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhi … stian.html

That argument boils down to, "He says he's a Christian, but he was a politician and they often lie about things".

Hank Rearden wrote:

Jaligard wrote:

Hank Rearden wrote:

Maybe.  Maybe not.

http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mhi … stian.html

That argument boils down to, "He says he's a Christian, but he was a politician and they often lie about things".

Not completely.  It also states that he and his various lieutenants said some very questionable things about Christians and that they DID some very questionable things to many of them.

AND, the article points out that ultimately the "Hitler was a Christian" argument is stupid.  As they said near the end of the article, Hitler was also a vegetarian. Are all vegetarians, thus, murderous psychopaths with dictatorial tendencies?

No but labeling a vegetarian a non-vegetarian because, say, he eats eggs, or because he doesn't eat eggs is false. Hitler also killed Christians & Catholic but that didn't make him a non-Christian. There are many people killing others of their own religions. There are many people of the same religion don't agree with each other but from a third party point of view, they are still of the same religion, just different as individuals.

Hank Rearden wrote:

mahakali wrote:

No but labeling a vegetarian a non-vegetarian because, say, he eats eggs, or because he doesn't eat eggs is false.

Must be my lack of nuance.

Or short memory. I admit my wording about vegetarians was a bit confusing but I hope you read the rest.

Hank Rearden wrote:

I heard it said that religion has caused much grief and suffering.  True, that.  But have not secular states, particularly in the 20th century, caused more.  Think Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, etc.

Hank Rearden wrote:

I heard it said that religion has caused much grief and suffering.  True, that.  But have not secular states, particularly in the 20th century, caused more.  Think Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, etc.

mahakali wrote:

Hank Rearden wrote:

Hank Rearden wrote:

I heard it said that religion has caused much grief and suffering.  True, that.  But have not secular states, particularly in the 20th century, caused more.  Think Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Hitler, etc.

What's your point boldening secular states? You did deny he was a Christian. I boldened Hitler to point that when you started this thread you felt it was relevant to the discussion to mention Hitler.

I was getting at the fact that states have done a heck of a lot more damage, in recent times, then has religion.  all those mentioned are part of the despicable pantheon of thugs that ran various 20th century statist killing machines.  In none of the cases was any religion a particularly important driving factor of their totalitarian and murderous ideologies.

THAT was my initial point, and I shouldn't have been sucked into debating whether or not Hitler and Mother Theresa were cut from the same cloth (which is basically what that argument boiled down to), because, aside from being ridiculous, it does not bear in anyway on the fact that each of the worst examples of 20th century mass murder was driven by ideology that had no particular religious underpinnings... and that includes Germany of the 30s and 40s.

That's not to say that religion CAN'T be used to underpin reprehensible ideologies, just that it really hasn't been used that way recently (unless you count the "moral" majority, etc.... but I don't think that they can be compared to mao, hitler, stalin...)

And, in any case, thuggish ideologies will use and twist whatever is convenient to help to bolster their thuggery.  The ideas of cooperative endeavors and workers' rights are great... until the Soviets twisted it into the  Gulag.

Mao was the product of a Christian society? Hmm. Are all athiests products of Christianity? Is there anything bad that Christianity didnt help create?

The ideology doesn't really matter imho. It's my side vs your side. Maybe Elton think stripping the skin may help people see similarities but but he forgot the F-word sells like hot cakes.

StaticAge wrote:

Mao was the product of a Christian society? Hmm. Are all athiests products of Christianity? Is there anything bad that Christianity didnt help create?

What "created" human nature?