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kb5zhh wrote:

Ra wrote:

kb5zhh wrote:

True, but the characteristic to highlight is not the fact that you like women.  It's that you don't like gay people.  The fact that you are heterosexual really has nothing to do with anything.

Perhaps you believe that I don't like "gay" people, but the fact is that I have never said that I "dislike" nor that I "like" gay people. This is what I said before:

If I am in a trench with the rest of my squad, you bet that all the members know each other. They know how each one reacts under stress, because their lives depend on it. When one is blasted to pieces, the others know what to do. When they come under fire, they know exactly what to do. They react as one. The members of the squad like to talk about women, the married ones talk about their wives, family, etc. They don't talk about their loving man waiting for their return. My discomfort has nothing to do with dislike, hate, etc., and a lot to do with my core values, what I believe on, what to me is right, or wrong. I am a heterosexual man, that's all.

That and you did say you'd kick your kids out had they been gay.  I don't know why you think repeatedly saying that you are straight makes it right to not want to be around gays.

As a straight guy who has no problem with gay people, I find the repititous reassertion of Ra's heterosexuality to be.
A. Yes, we know you are straight
B. Sorry being straight in not a "mitigating factor" in this discussion.

Ra wrote:

kb5zhh wrote:

Ra wrote:

kb5zhh wrote:

True, but the characteristic to highlight is not the fact that you like women.  It's that you don't like gay people.  The fact that you are heterosexual really has nothing to do with anything.

Perhaps you believe that I don't like "gay" people, but the fact is that I have never said that I "dislike" nor that I "like" gay people. This is what I said before:

That and you did say you'd kick your kids out had they been gay.  I don't know why you think repeatedly saying that you are straight makes it right to not want to be around gays.

For goodness sake! I just copied and pasted my own text from a previous post-where I was responding to someone else-only to point out to you that I haven't said that "I like nor dislike" gay people like you said.  That's all.

You've been all over the map with this.  You've said that it doesn't matter, and also that it matters so much that you'd kick your own kids to the curb over the issue.  That you you can accept homosexuality if they can accept that you are heterosexual to you'd never sleep anywhere near a gay person.  You cannot blame me for your inconsistencies.

kb5zhh wrote:

Ra wrote:

kb5zhh wrote:

That and you did say you'd kick your kids out had they been gay.  I don't know why you think repeatedly saying that you are straight makes it right to not want to be around gays.

For goodness sake! I just copied and pasted my own text from a previous post-where I was responding to someone else-only to point out to you that I haven't said that "I like nor dislike" gay people like you said.  That's all.

You've been all over the map with this.  You've said that it doesn't matter, and also that it matters so much that you'd kick your own kids to the curb over the issue.  That you you can accept homosexuality if they can accept that you are heterosexual to you'd never sleep anywhere near a gay person.  You cannot blame me for your inconsistencies.

But this one is an entirely different issue than what I was trying to tell you above. What have my children (youngest one who is 24) to do with a group of military members in a squad? Besides, I have never had to kick any of my now adult children out of my house. My wife and I lead by example, and never had the need to even mention anything relating to sexual preference to my kids. By the age of 18, every one of them (two daughters and two sons), were ready to move out of the house to the college dorms, to work, or to whatever they wanted. The boys learned to repair their cars, change tires, to tune-up the house's boiler, to brush the fireplace and the boiler stacks, to do carpentry, plumbing, and minor electrical work. They can take care of themselves,including the girls which are now married and with families of their own, and who come home from across the US to celebrate Christmas with us.

It's this (my kids) that have nothing to do with the subject of homosexuality in a military squad. Just put the emotional stuff aside, and things will become clearer.

Last edited by Ra (2006-12-01 9:58 pm)

Ra wrote:

My wife and I lead by example, and never had the need to even mention anything relating to sexual preference to my kids.

Damn.  Are you implying that *MY* parents provided "bad" examples?  You really need to just shut up before you continue to make such endlessly foolish comments in this thread.  It's like you're just throwing gasoline around right now.  Do you think before you post?

Ra wrote:

bedstuy wrote:

Ra wrote:

My wife and I lead by example, and never had the need to even mention anything relating to sexual preference to my kids.

Damn.  Are you implying that *MY* parents provided "bad" examples?  You really need to just shut up before you continue to make such endlessly foolish comments in this thread.  It's like you're just throwing gasoline around right now.  Do you think before you post?

I have no idea how your parents lead their lives. I can only assume that they did well enough, otherwise you would not be here talking about it.  They created life, and that's good

So what does "leading by example" have to do with sexual preference?  Is that like your gay male childhood Barbie doll reference earlier in the thread?

Tallgeese wrote:

The military ended racial discrimination ahead of the civilian world.

Did they?
Wasn't vietnam the white man sending the black man to go kill the yellow man?

mo' ron wrote:

Ra wrote:

I haven't said I am worried about anything. What I said may sound ridiculous to you, because I am saying it from a heterosexual man's perspective. Heterosexual men speak of women, most may look a pictures of women, etc. Such talks within a close group of heterosexual men often enhances the unity of the group. It does not have to be talking about sex, but about their wives and children.

I'm not gay. I'm a straight male, just like you. I just wouldn't have a problem with a gay man just because he's gay (I definitely don't have a problem with lesbians ). I would think straight single males would be similarly dissonant around a bunch of people talking about their wives/girlfriends/whatever. Contrary to your beliefs, most gay males do understand the dynamics of "normal" straight relationships, and would be able to relate to someone talking about their spouse/kids pretty easily.

If you "want, or need" to be part of the group, it's up to you to accept that the heterosexual men in the group have a perspective relating to your sexual preference that is the complete opposite of yours.

This doesn't have too much to do with wanting to be part of a "group." It's about American Citizens wanting to serve their country. It's somewhat sickening and hypocritical that the country that is the beacon of freedom and democracy in the world is still prejudicial towards a group of its own people, for no good reason.

It's you who has to understand that, not the members of the group you want to become part of. You can't change others of have them look through your eyes. When I understand who or what you are, and then don't hate you, or don't ridicule, I am putting in the back of my mind the minor differences you have mentioned.

You make it seem that gay people have done something to you that currently prevents you from putting the differences to the back of your mind.

What would you do for example if your best friend came out to you that he was gay? Would you freak out and never speak to him again?

Well, I made a mistake thinking that you were homosexual. If that offends you in any way, please accept my most sincere apology. Please understand that I apologize, not to change the tone or our dialog, but simply because you have been very civil with me, and that I respect from anyone.

Keep in mind that I have never said that I "have a problem" with anybody. I only mentioned the word, "uncomfortable,"  and that started an attack on me from all fronts. While in the military, I worked for a least three years with a woman who was a lesbian, and was not uncomfortable in any way, except that I can't tell how I would have felt having her sleep right next to me. See, males and females sleep in separate locations at all times, and also, when I served in the military, no women could be at the front lines. I worked with her when stationed on US soil.

I would also like to point out that in my 20 years working for the military, and living in the family housing units, I never experienced any situation where an open homosexual person (male or female) was involved with my and other families, so I am ignorant in relation to the relationship dynamics between homosexuals and heterosexuals. I have not reasons not to believe what you said:

most gay males do understand the dynamics of "normal" straight relationships, and would be able to relate to someone talking about their spouse/kids pretty easily.

I understand that open homosexual men and women want to serve, and I am certain that in the future this issue will be discussed in the Supreme Court. I don't know if this issue has been brought up to the Supremes in the past.

I don't really know how i would react if my best friend tells me he is gay, but I can tell you that now that I am much older than when I was in the military (I am a middle age man), I would respect him as I have always had. However, my close friend and I see each other a couple of times per year, during hunting season, and when I stop by his office on his birthday. We have never talk of anything that remotely resembles homosexuality, just hunting stuff, computers, metal detecting, photography, mining, and such.

My closest friends are my family: my wife, sons, and daughters. If one of them tells me he or she is homosexual, I have no choice but to continue loving them as I have always had, even if it breaks my heart.

Ra wrote:

Metacell wrote:

So whats the military stance on people who are a 2-3 on the Kinsey Scale?

What exactly would a 2-3 Kinsey scale be in relation to people?

0 = 99% straight (since everybody's a little gay), and 6 = 99% gay.  So 2-3 is bi with straight tendencies.

Last edited by Metacell (2006-12-02 8:09 am)

I never experienced any situation where an open homosexual person (male or female) was involved with my and other families, so I am ignorant in relation to the relationship dynamics between homosexuals and heterosexuals. I have not reasons not to believe what you said:

I understand where you're coming from. Before I started posting on MAF (several years now) I didn't have any contact with gay people, and just assumed they were sicko freaks, and I was decidedly anti-gay. It was only after encountering the diverse personalities here of diverse sets of gay people that made me realize that their gayness is a small factor in their overall personality. The kind of flamboyant gays you see on TV are only 1 of the many types of gays out there, and I couldn't (and shouldn't anyway) judge them all based on that.

If you watch the discussions here on MAF relating to those types of relationship issues, the gay posters are indistinguishable from the straight posters in their perspectives and advice. I realize judging the real-world based on an internet site seems dumb, but it's the best I have to go on, and seems to corroborate accounts of gays from other people too.

Sounds like you're operating under an extreme misconception, Ra...

Slow but getting there, the next President might actually be able to change this.

bedstuy wrote:

Survey Indicates Shift in Military Attitudes

Nearly one in four U.S. troops (23%) say they know for sure that someone in their unit is gay or lesbian, and of those 59% said they learned about the person's sexual orientation directly from the individual, a Zogby International poll of troops who served in Iraq and Afghanistan shows.

More than half (55%) of the troops who know a gay peer said the presence of gays or lesbians in their unit is well known by others. According to the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, service members are not allowed to say that they are gay.
...
The data also indicate that military attitudes about homosexuality have shifted. In the early 1990's, many senior officers argued that U.S. troops could not form bonds of trust with gays and lesbians, according to Dr. Aaron Belkin, Director of the Palm Center, who has written widely on the subject. According to the new Zogby data, however, nearly three in four troops (73%) say they are personally comfortable in the presence of gays and lesbians. Of the 20% who said they are uncomfortable around gays and lesbians, only 5% are "very" uncomfortable, while 15% are "somewhat" uncomfortable. Just two percent of troops said knowing that gays are not allowed to serve openly was an important reason in their decision to join the military.

Some troops believe the integration of openly gay and lesbian service members in the military could undermine cohesion, but those who know at least one gay peer are less likely to believe it would negatively impact morale. Of those who know a gay or lesbian peer, 27% said it has a negative impact on the morale of their unit. By contrast, among those who do not know of a gay or lesbian person in their unit, or are unsure of their presence, 58% said it would have a negative impact on their unit.

LIES

In another thread...

Chickenhawk wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/01/02/ … index.html