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Farmerkev wrote:

The macho angle I find the least justifiable.
If you're a big tough asskickin soldier you hardly fear an advance from a gay guy.

You're assuming that gay soldiers can't be just as tough and just as asskickin...and seriously, I'm not trying to justify anything, putting out info as I see it as regards to Congress and don't ask don't tell.

There needs to be major and drastic changes in the composition, training and culture of our armed forces.  It should be a "shape up or ship out" institution.  You join, you swear to defend Americans - all Americans.  Even Israel - a theocracy - allows homosexuals to serve openly.

That being said, I agree that wartime isn't a good time to change things.  I would rather have the Democratic Congress find a way to extricate the US from Iraquagmire first.  I also agree that their majority is too slim and it's way too soon and it would be an unwise use of political capital to push the issue at this time.  Democrats did win, but look at the numbers and many races were awfully close.  They gotta stay in those seats and look to 2008 (I hope to Zeus they won't run Obama or Kerry).

Honestly, I'd rather they revisit a balanced budget, sensible foreign policy and universal health care.  I know the Democrats pay the LBGT community lip service and I won't vote for them (and don't always) based on that issue because they're record is not very good when it comes to LGBT rights.  But the Democrats already sacrificed much in the cause of civil rights.  LBJ was right when he said that the Democrats would lose the South for a generation.  Now that they're starting to claw their way back, it would be politically foolish for them to give it all up again so soon.

robco wrote:

There needs to be major and drastic changes in the composition, training and culture of our armed forces.  It should be a "shape up or ship out" institution.  You join, you swear to defend Americans - all Americans.  Even Israel - a theocracy - allows homosexuals to serve openly.

Two different issues.  Name when the armed forces refused to defend anyone or obey orders?  The military has not only defended America but have fought and died for whatever they're told to die for, whatever reason, good or bad or stupid as those reasons may be.  If the Congress, The Supreme Court or the President told the military that don't ask, don't tell was out and gays could openingly join the military, the reply would be "Aye, aye sir."  The military, while obligated to give their point of view, would have no choice in the matter...except whether to come in the military or stay.  That is the issue that everyone would have to have a good handle on because a small change means big consequences.

Farmerkev wrote:

KingFred wrote:

And robco: you should drop the "BT" part of LGBT; no politician that I've heard of has ever made any worthwhile mention of the bi and trans sector.

I'll be honest, gays and bi I get, the trans thing...
I'm barely past ignorant about them though so I really should just keep my mouth shut.

I suppose I would just be happy that my own life was free from such confusion.

Ra wrote:

everybody I knew and worked with were heterosexual

Ha ha ha

Ra wrote:

Our military in not like other military. Why should the military have to adjust to homosexuality? Why not just living the military alone or at least "adjust to the military" instead of the other way around?

What sort of "adjustment" would be necessary?  Requiring people to check their prejudices at the door when they go to work?

bratboy wrote:

jeremiah256 wrote:

I'm not sure.  As someone else stated, they don't seem to care (at least the Canadians are like this).  I could make up excuses that our crews are younger and spend much more time away from port than our counterparts (ergo, sexual tension is higher), but the bottom line is, Americans are different.

...but don't problems of prejudice arise with other groups that are present?

What if I join the military but I really dislike blacks, or jews, or women.  Am I afforded special treatment in light of these concerns? 

I doubt a change in policy would be painless but I have a difficult time buying the argument that it would be impossible.

Those other groups are also military members. If you join the military and don't like blacks, Hispanics, etc., you are going to have problems, because some of your ranking military members will be black, Hispanic, etc. Since discrimination or any kind in punishable under the UCMJ, more than likely you will be kicked out.

A change of policy will destroy the US military. What you are asking is for the military to change for you.

JakeTheTall wrote:

Ra wrote:

Perhaps civilians would accept the idea, but I doubt that military members will. Keep in mind that I have been out of the military for over ten years, so I could wrong (I don't think I am, though).

I was talking to a buddy about this about ten years ago.  This man had served in the 60's in Germany.  When I asked him about it, he chuckled and said "oh, gays have been serving in the military for a long time."

All this would mean is that they can come out of the closet.

Yes, all sorts of people join the military. There is a screening process taking place when people join, but not everybody tells the truth. But once something happens and the news comes out, depending on the gravity of what the "news is," the military has reasons for kicking one out or not. Homosexuality is not a crime in the military, but sometimes military members commit crimes and go to prison.

Ra wrote:

mahakali wrote:

Sodomy isn't gay sex. You guys all have prostate glands.

But sodomy is also a punishable offense. It's a crime.

What are you talking about?

bratboy wrote:

Ra wrote:

Our military in not like other military. Why should the military have to adjust to homosexuality? Why not just living the military alone or at least "adjust to the military" instead of the other way around?

What sort of "adjustment" would be necessary?  Requiring people to check their prejudices at the door when they go to work?

It's not that simple. Military members follow military rules. These are not "prejudices."

Ra wrote:

mahakali wrote:

Sodomy isn't gay sex. You guys all have prostate glands.

But sodomy is also a punishable offense. It's a crime.

In Alaska? I find that hard to believe.

bratboy wrote:

Ra wrote:

bratboy wrote:

What sort of "adjustment" would be necessary?  Requiring people to check their prejudices at the door when they go to work?

It's not that simple. Military members follow military rules. These are not "prejudices."

I don't follow.

The government says "gays can now serve openly in the military."  The military stops kicking people out simply because they're gay.

What sort of "adjustment" would be necessary? 

(...and I'm still curious as to how you knew everyone you served with was heterosexual.)

We will have to wait for the Government to do so first, and then we will see what happens.  Back then I heard of a homosexual or two being kicked out, but not anybody I knew or worked with.

Last edited by Ra (2006-11-22 1:27 am)