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#1 2006-11-30 10:34 pm
- KingFred
- is enjoying his status as
- Royal Wombat

- Registered: 2002-05-09
- Posts: 7541
New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
So Representative-elect Keith Ellison (D-MN), the first Muslim elected to US Congress, has said he intends to take his oath with his hand on the Koran.
Shock and surprise, some people are furious at this. How DARE he refuse to swear on The Good Book!
Says Dennis Prager, columnist and radio host:
When all elected officials take their oaths of office with their hands on the very same book, they all affirm that some unifying value system underlies American civilization. If Keith Ellison is allowed to change that, he will be doing more damage to the unity of America and to the value system that has formed this country than the terrorists of 9-11.
His column is here. As well as the above snippet, he also claims that the act will "undermine American civilization". If you are unwilling to take an oath on America's "holiest book" then don't serve in Congress, says Prager.
Way to go. Let's tie serving the country to being religious and CHRISTIAN, specifically. This is what America needs right now.
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#2 2006-11-30 10:39 pm
- bedstuy
- Archimandrite, Eastern Elite

- From: King Cole Bar, St. Regis Hotel
- Registered: 2003-09-20
- Posts: 13620
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
these people are so incredibly tedious
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#3 2006-11-30 10:39 pm
- Chickenhawk
- Snark Snark Snark Snark
- From: Being Snarky
- Registered: 2005-06-01
- Posts: 5816
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
oh lord.
The recent medical controversy over whether vaccinations cause autism reveals a habit of human cognition—thinking anecdotally comes naturally, whereas thinking scientifically does not. -- Michael Shermer
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#4 2006-11-30 10:43 pm
- Farmerkev
- Official Dementor
- Moderator
- Registered: 2003-01-03
- Posts: 18616
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
This is one of those times I wish I were British. They have such wonderful names to call people like this, prat, burke. All we ami's have is the tired old stupid son of a bitch.
Do your part to combat global warming.
Eat a cow.
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#5 2006-11-30 10:47 pm
- agedgruel
- insert clever phrase here

- From: Great Plains, U.S.A.
- Registered: 2004-06-05
- Posts: 775
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
What the hell.
The great thing about America is the fact that stupid sons of bitches such as these have the right to spout such bullsmurf. Totally predictable he played the Hitler card.
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#6 2006-11-30 10:53 pm
- KingFred
- is enjoying his status as
- Royal Wombat

- Registered: 2002-05-09
- Posts: 7541
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
agedgruel wrote:
What the hell.
The great thing about America is the fact that stupid sons of bitches such as these have the right to spout such bullsmurf. Totally predictable he played the Hitler card.
Yeah, that was a nice touch, wan'it?
I'm curious to see what the reactions from Bushco (who like to pander to the religious extremists) will be. Though I fully expect they'll stay far, far away from it. But still it would be nice to hear a few of the saner members of the right say this Prager guy is a stupid somabitch.
I'm not holding my breath for that however.
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#7 2006-11-30 10:59 pm
- agedgruel
- insert clever phrase here

- From: Great Plains, U.S.A.
- Registered: 2004-06-05
- Posts: 775
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
What is the significance of swearing an oath on the Bible? If a person is athiest, it would have about the same importance as the telephone book. Probably even less, as I would assume athiests look up numbers in the phone book.
The reaction to this to me stinks like a "rile up the base" move amongst the flag wavers. A "LOOK, SOMETHING SHINY", if you will.
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#8 2006-11-30 11:20 pm
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
If I were in Ellison place, I have done something that would probably piss them off despite being as legitimate if not more so than swearing on any religious text. I would have sworn on copy of the constitution, the very thing your swearing your loyalty to. But that's just me.
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#9 2006-12-01 8:18 am
- user
- Your plastic pal who's fun to be with

- From: I'm not getting you down, am I
- Registered: 2001-10-15
- Posts: 16027
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
But for all of American history, Jews elected to public office have taken their oath on the Bible, even though they do not believe in the New Testament, and the many secular elected officials have not believed in the Old Testament either.
Someone in another forum mentioned that, ironically, Prager is Jewish.
And it's not even true.
Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.
Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.
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#10 2006-12-01 8:46 am
- Pithecanthropus
- Roast Master

- From: St. Cloud, MN
- Registered: 2002-12-30
- Posts: 4451
- Website
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
Makes me proud to be a Minnesotan! Go, Kieth, go!
Swearing someone in on the Bible is just another one of those smurfed up things in the government like congressional or supreme court opening prayers and printing "In God We Trust" on our money.
In God We Trust, huh? I don't.
Grandfatherly advice: You can drink 'em pretty, but you can't drink 'em smart.
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#11 2006-12-01 9:08 am
- user
- Your plastic pal who's fun to be with

- From: I'm not getting you down, am I
- Registered: 2001-10-15
- Posts: 16027
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
Josh on The West Wing: "Well, there's nothing that says that you HAVE to swear on a bible. You could swear on a copy of Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Edition if you wanted to."
President-elect Bartlett: "Now, do you think that would be a good idea??"
Aw, he's no fun, he fell right over.
Unless you become as little children, there's no way you will believe this crap.
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#12 2006-12-01 9:13 am
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
Then there's those darn Quakers who won't even take the oath of office (Nixon affirmed it, but did not swear on a bible). If a Jew wanted to swear on the Torah, would that be acceptable?
It is an odd thing, but every one who disappears is said to be seen at San Francisco. It must be a delightful city, and possess all the attractions of the next world.
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#13 2006-12-01 9:28 am
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
In laws expressed in the Constitution yes. The following seem to be the most relevant sections:
Amendment I - Freedom of Religion, Press, Expression. Ratified 12/15/1791
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Article VI. - Debts, Supremacy, Oaths
All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
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#14 2006-12-01 10:29 am
- iSeamas
- Captain Howdy

- From: the Sticks
- Registered: 2001-12-26
- Posts: 1433
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
Praeger is either nuts or just plain chose not to do his research.
There have been a couple Presidents (in addition to the aforementioned Nixon) who chose to "affirm" or so place their hand over a book of law.
(in 19th century no one would bat an eye at this)
That is in addition to dozens of Senators, Congressmen, Jurists, Cabinet members.
I hate when people like Praeger do this type of thing, it's childish.
All I wanted was a Pepsi, just one Pepsi, and she wouldn't give it to me.
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#15 2006-12-01 10:42 am
- agedgruel
- insert clever phrase here

- From: Great Plains, U.S.A.
- Registered: 2004-06-05
- Posts: 775
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
That Damn Constititution, getting in the way of a good flag waving episode wrote:
The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
Emphasis mine. If I'm reading this correctly, it would seem that placing your hand on one book versus another could be construed as a religious test.
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#16 2006-12-01 11:01 am
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
Certainly if it's a religious tome, such as the Bible, Koran, Torah, etc., and not one of your own choosing. You need not even swear upon any object. All that's required is the Oath or Affirmation.
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#17 2006-12-01 11:10 am
- Pariah
- James Carville Fan..

- From: Belly Of The Beast, Oklahoma!
- Registered: 2001-05-24
- Posts: 18399
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
While on a bad day I might agree I don't really think it is fair of Prager to blame American civilization on the Bible exclusively.
"and it's not surprising that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Barack Obama
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#18 2006-12-01 11:26 am
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
ScifiterX wrote:
Certainly if it's a religious tome, such as the Bible, Koran, Torah, etc., and not one of your own choosing. You need not even swear upon any object. All that's required is the Oath or Affirmation.
From what I've read, the official ceremony doesn't involve putting your hand on anything. It's done as a group for all of congress. This is a private photo op, so carries no pragmatic relevancy anyway.
The fact is that Members of Congress do not hold any book when they are sworn in. They simply gather in the House chamber and are sworn in en masse. Prager is referring to the private non-official swearing in ceremonies some Members stage essentially as a photo op.
It's a paradox of how sharply dull I am.
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#19 2006-12-01 11:32 am
- KingFred
- is enjoying his status as
- Royal Wombat

- Registered: 2002-05-09
- Posts: 7541
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
iSeamas wrote:
Praeger is either nuts or just plain chose not to do his research.
I'm thinking more that he's looking for a little bit of light being cast on himself, climbing up a few rungs on the Famous Radio Commentator ladder, even if he has to make moronic statements to do so. It's worked for so many other talking heads: Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Savage, etc., have all made a fine carreer and plenty of cash following such tactic.
Now, I personally have never heard of this Prager dude before but I'm gonna watch and see if his name comes up a lot more from here on. I bet it does.
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#20 2006-12-01 11:55 am
- Pariah
- James Carville Fan..

- From: Belly Of The Beast, Oklahoma!
- Registered: 2001-05-24
- Posts: 18399
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
It's really striking how anti-American all the "conservative" talking heads have become. If Prager don't like religious freedom he is welcomed to move to Israel or somewhere else he may feel more comfortable.
"and it's not surprising that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations."
Barack Obama
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#21 2006-12-01 12:01 pm
- gas huffer
- hegelian diuretic

- Registered: 2004-03-20
- Posts: 876
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
KingFred wrote:
So Representative-elect Keith Ellison (D-MN), the first Muslim elected to US Congress, has said he intends to take his oath with his hand on the Koran.
Shock and surprise, some people are furious at this. How DARE he refuse to swear on The Good Book!
Says Dennis Prager, columnist and radio host:When all elected officials take their oaths of office with their hands on the very same book, they all affirm that some unifying value system underlies American civilization. If Keith Ellison is allowed to change that, he will be doing more damage to the unity of America and to the value system that has formed this country than the terrorists of 9-11.
His column is here. As well as the above snippet, he also claims that the act will "undermine American civilization". If you are unwilling to take an oath on America's "holiest book" then don't serve in Congress, says Prager.
Way to go. Let's tie serving the country to being religious and CHRISTIAN, specifically. This is what America needs right now.
I once had to testify in court, and I refused to swear upon a bible and was properly accomodated.
"What's your favorite beer, son?"
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#22 2006-12-01 12:24 pm
- JakeTheTall
- Cargo Cultist

- From: In Permanent Opposition
- Registered: 2003-03-13
- Posts: 9611
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
KingFred wrote:
Also handily on the article, is the following caption to a picture:
A Palestinian woman holds the Koran during a Hamas rally against Israeli troops operation in northern Gaza strip November 3, 2006. Israeli troops shot and killed two Palestinian women acting as human shields between Israeli soldiers and Palestinian gunmen during a clash at a Gaza mosque on Friday, witnesses said, before the gunmen escaped.
Which has little to do with the Koran.
Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet." They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew.
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#23 2006-12-01 12:26 pm
- JakeTheTall
- Cargo Cultist

- From: In Permanent Opposition
- Registered: 2003-03-13
- Posts: 9611
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
gas huffer wrote:
I once had to testify in court, and I refused to swear upon a bible and was properly accomodated.
I don't think its standard operating procedure anymore to use the Holy Bible to swear people in.
Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim. Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet." They did so, and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew.
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#24 2006-12-01 1:16 pm
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
kb5zhh wrote:
ScifiterX wrote:
Certainly if it's a religious tome, such as the Bible, Koran, Torah, etc., and not one of your own choosing. You need not even swear upon any object. All that's required is the Oath or Affirmation.
From what I've read, the official ceremony doesn't involve putting your hand on anything. It's done as a group for all of congress. This is a private photo op, so carries no pragmatic relevancy anyway.
The fact is that Members of Congress do not hold any book when they are sworn in. They simply gather in the House chamber and are sworn in en masse. Prager is referring to the private non-official swearing in ceremonies some Members stage essentially as a photo op.
So in other words a publicity seeking bigot got riled up be cause a publicity seeking senator chose to buck convention in a controversial but still legitimate fashion.
How can we recover the time these morons caused us to waste?
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#25 2006-12-01 1:27 pm
- punkgeek
- born of frustration

- From: Dew Drop Inn
- Registered: 2001-05-28
- Posts: 3704
Re: New Rep taking oath on Koran is worse than 9-11
Keep hitting that crack pipe, Prager. Way to cater to post 9-11 fears and push that anti-Muslim rhetoric.
Why would (or should) a Muslim swear on the Bible? It's not part of his belief system. So much for freedom of religion.
America is hardly a Christian country, even though it parades itself as one.
"I also use lowercase christian when referring to her and people like her. To be Christian, they'd have to follow the example of Christ. These people are so un-Christlike, it's not even funny."
- robco
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