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Daniel wrote:

Those laws only exist because the feds blackmailed all the states into compliance.

Unfortunately the Supreme Court agrees with you in respect to the constitutionality, but, to pull a Steyr: "sounds reasonable but I don't believe it."

I don't think it's constitutional.  You're really not going to change my mind about that.

They only face a reduction in federal spending, and really nothing in the spending clause prohibits congress from placing such conditions on its outlays made under that clause.

Of course, the 21 requirement is not absolute with regards to consumption.  In Texas, a minor can drink with a parent or with their adult spouse.

Daniel wrote:

20-year-olds are kids to you?

And this isn't, and never has been, about what may or may not have happened to me.

I'm being flippant in using the term "kid," but it's not far off the mark.  20-year-olds can still be quite immature.

The point is....rebel on your own time (and dime).

Daniel wrote:

20-year-olds are kids to you?

Yes.  Yes, they are.  And when you're in your 40s you'll think so, too.

C. Ives wrote:

I live in America.  Why that magically makes my post relevant only bratboy can answer.

I didn't say that only 'american' opinions were 'relevant,' but  I was preempting the usual 'you don't deserve tips and I wouldn't tip you' comments from people who live in places where tipping is not customary like it is here.

I generally tip around 20%.
It's a gratuity.  It's not mandatory. I leave it because I am appreciative of the services rendered.  There is no requirement to leave it, and I don't give a smurf if you make $.13/hour.  That's not my fault, and it's not my job nor is it my civil duty to make sure you get back up to minimum wage.

TIPPING IS OPTIONAL.

WHO SAID OTHERWISE?

Tipping is a social contract.  It isn't required by law.  It's not required by law to wait your turn in line, either (and there are people who refuse to do that, as well). 

If you were eating dinner with someone at a restaurant and they informed you at the end of the meal that they "don't tip," would that strike you at all as....incredibly cheap?

Chickenhawk wrote:

bratboy wrote:

Of course, the 21 requirement is not absolute with regards to consumption.  In Texas, a minor can drink with a parent or with their adult spouse.

Ditto for NJ (I think). I regularly go to the liquor store with my father when I'm home, and buy beer. Not for PA, I think. Last time I was at the Brewpub with my parents, I covertly drank the rest of my dad's beer when he gave it to me.


Oh, and....
::cracks open a nice cold perfectly legal beer::

Chickenhawk wrote:

Would you risk your job to help out a complete stranger on an issue that is not that morally clear?

Abstract hypotheticals are useless.

Dan, please take a valium, or whatever tranquilizer bedstuy decides to prescribe to you.

Daniel wrote:

Pithecanthropus wrote:

Daniel wrote:

20-year-olds are kids to you?

Yes.  Yes, they are.  And when you're in your 40s you'll think so, too.

I don't think you have any idea how many notches down the ladder of respect you just went in my book.  I'm certain you don't care one bit, but there it is anyway.

You don't believe that every-other person felt the same way you do at some point?  You yourself have stated that you won't give a flip about any of this by the time you turn 21.  If you were truly principled, you would refuse to patronize ANY establishment that upholds alcohol sale laws....even after you turn 21. 

You won't do that, of course.

C. Ives wrote:

That would be you.

Oops, wrong.  Feel free to cite where I said such a thing.  "Obligatory" does not necessarily refer to rule of law.  It can refer to custom or moral obligation. 

Yup, and I don't begrudge you wanting a tip one bit.  Expecting one, on the other hand . . .

It's perfectly reasonable to "expect" to be tipped when quality service is provided.  It's a custom that the vast majority of restaurant customers are well aware of, and opting to receive service from someone that you know works for tips certainly forms a social contract on your part. 

Other countries opt to simply place a service charge on the bill.  In this country, most situations place the entire service charge at the customer's discretion. 

That doesn't make refusing to tip any more acceptable when the service received was adequate.

Daniel wrote:

89 days 11 hours 7 minutes and 23 seconds.

Like I said.

I have a difficult time believing that even now you don't find the majority of people your own age to be obnoxious and immature.

bratboy wrote:

C. Ives wrote:

That would be you.

Oops, wrong.  Feel free to cite where I said such a thing.  "Obligatory" does not necessarily refer to rule of law.  It can refer to custom or moral obligation.

I already cited it.  No matter which definition you want to quote, you are saying it's required.  I'm saying it's not.

C. Ives wrote:

Yup, and I don't begrudge you wanting a tip one bit.  Expecting one, on the other hand . . .

bratboy wrote:

It's perfectly reasonable to "expect" to be tipped when quality service is provided.

No, it's not.  I provide quality service every day, but I don't get tipped for it. I don't expect one, and the quality of my services do not go down for a lack thereof.  My employer pays me a reasonable rate and that is what I get. 

bratboy wrote:

It's a custom that the vast majority of restaurant customers are well aware of, and opting to receive service from someone that you know works for tips certainly forms a social contract on your part.

Again, no it doesn't.  The contract in a restaurant is that the wait staff brings food/beverage in a timely and hospitible manner, and I pay my bill when it arrives.  Anything beyond that is optional.  Yes, it's a custom that people are well aware of, and most follow, but it's just that, a custom. A widely accepted practice.

bratboy wrote:

Other countries opt to simply place a service charge on the bill.  In this country, most situations place the entire service charge at the customer's discretion.

True.  And that means that the service charge can be zero.  There's no rule that says you have to tip.

bratboy wrote:

That doesn't make refusing to tip any more acceptable when the service received was adequate.

I already said I tip.  Sometimes quite well.  I've been a waiter, and I've gotten great tips and lousy ones (and no tips).  It was always up to the customer, and I didn't complain when I didn't get one. 

I guess you've lost me now.  You acknowledge that tipping is not mandatory, yet you think there's some sort of "moral obligation".  Obligation implies that it is mandatory.  You say that eating in a restaurant "certainly forms a social contract on your part," but that's simply not true.  There may be an implied traditional sense that one should place some money on the table (15% is traditional) but there's certainly no social contract, implied or otherwise.

bratboy wrote:

Dan, what does that "consumption not prohibited" mean on your map?

The chart originated here:
- http://alcoholpolicy.niaaa.nih.gov/inde … pe=B_BASIC

There are a whole bunch of other charts here:
- http://alcoholpolicy.niaaa.nih.gov/inde … ADF1}#UAPS

Some of the information they present is a bit confusing and at times, even seems contradictory.

Chickenhawk wrote:

Dan, please take a valium, or whatever tranquilizer bedstuy decides to prescribe to you.

Paleez... Dan is so obsessed with alcohol the last thing he needs is to start throwing pills into the mix.  He's not disciplined enough.  It would be like Betty Ford x10.