Forums | MacLife

thelegendofjohn wrote:

Gatchaman wrote:

user wrote:

Some PC douche at the mall tried to rag me once because I asked about some Mac software. "You know," he said, "Beta was a good idea, too, but then VHS took over the market."

I said, "Oh Beta's still around - it's being used by the professionals."

Too bad you were wrong about that.  The professional flavors of Betacam have about as much in common with Betamax as nascar race cars do with production fords and chevrolets at your local dealership.

True, but I feel like he still had a snappy little comeback there.

It's not like the guy in the store would have known this.

BTW, Season One of Battlestar Galactica is coming out on HD-DVD this winter.

Warin wrote:

What most people dont realize is that we almost had this very sort of format war with DVD.  Toshiba and Sony had different DVD formats, but the Beta/VHS debacle was still recent enough that they figured screwing each other AND the consumers with another format war was a really bad idea.  Fast forward less than 10 years and the stupid muppets go ahead and do it anyways.  oi.

robco wrote:

Pfft. Optical media is so last century.

Amen to both of these comments!  Putting them both together - both formats could lose the format war this time!  I'm just skipping optical media, and sticking with non-physical based content delivery.  If more people do that, and that delivery becomes more prelevant (high-def from iTS, soon?) both sides will lose the optical format war, by driving users to a better, alternative technology.

Last edited by Czachorski (2007-08-31 10:34 am)

frankly wrote:

I really thought this type of device would have solved the problem by now: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/custom … merReviews

No way. These things are brand new, expensive, and tend not to support the full feature sets of both formats. Give it time.

frankly wrote:

What really kills me is the movie studios. Why would they want their content to be released to a limited audience on purpose??? It isn't as if they are making the HD-DVD players. If they were then it would make sense to release their movies on one format only. Otherwise, it is just stupid. If they wanted to settle this they should have stepped up to the plate before the two formats were even released years ago.

It's really not that complicated. Sony (the studio) is clearly going to support Sony (the hardware manufacturer. Moreover, studios like Fox are big on DRM and BD+, and they they're not going to back HDDVD unless they absolutely have to.

Conversely, other studios feel they need to put exclusive support behind HDDVD since disks and players more affordable, there are significantly better yields for disks, and it's much easier to develop for. Moreover, if no one supports HDDVD exclusively, it's going to loose because studios Fox and Sony are not going to budge any damn time soon. BD will have full studio support, and HDDVD will be missing support from some studios.

People are backing BD exclusively primarily because of DRM. People are backing HDDVD exclusively because they don't want the format to be steamrolled by BD.

frankly wrote:

First, I said that type of device, not that device in particular. I mean I thought we would see more dual format devices in the same way we saw DVD+R, DVD-R devices and that is the norm now. I don't think anyone makes a drive that only does one.

Yeah, I got that. But even DVD+-R took a while to take off.

frankly wrote:

These discs are sold at a much greater profit margin than regular DVDs so why would you want to miss out on any of that???

Well, because studios are concerned about maintaining future profits. That's what this whole format war is about. Some studios really want to protect their content down the road, while some are more concerned affordable adoption and manufacturing costs.

Some studios don't think BD+ will do a damn thing, and they don't want to be dragged into a format that will cost more to put a film on the shelf, and will take longer for consumers to get cheep players. Conversely, some studios that think dynamic DRM will drastically reduce disk-to-disk piracy. These folks think BD+ will make them more money in the long run.

It's a retarded fight, but it is what it is.

Are there differences in authoring? That would be a reason to back one format over another. Disc authoring is expensive, especially with relatively low sales for HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. They have to create versions for VHS, DVD, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray and that would be pricey.

I am going to breakdown for everyone why HD DVD vs BluRay doesn't matter because the war has already been won.



And the winner is...





















DVD











Did DVD and CD become the standard because of quality?  No, there was a quality improvement but those of use tape people will remember what was really the coolest part of the CD.

You don't even have to fast forward or rewind...you can just choose the track.  The same thing applies to DVD.  This was the single biggest improvement from the old format quality just came along for the ride.  Take MP3 vs CD it isn't about quality because everyone knows that MP3 isn't as good as the CD but it is the convenience.

The 8-track was replaced by the cassette because it could be FF and rewinded unlike the 8-track.



HD DVD and BluRay offer nothing substantial over their predecessor other than video quality and that isn't going to appeal to the mass market.

Last edited by Kurto2021 (2007-09-04 1:32 pm)

frankly wrote:

Kurto2021 wrote:

HD DVD and BluRay offer nothing substantial over their predecessor other than video quality and that isn't going to appeal to the mass market.

It is once the mass market has HD televisions and that will happen at some point in the next couple of years. Broadcast television is no longer going to be sent out in non-HD. Then what?

Frank

Will the Mass Market buy high-quality HD sets that make HD discs look substantially better than DVDs?  Will the mass market even know how to turn down the store-setting for high contrast and brightness designed to make the consumers say "ohhh - shiny and bright.  It must be better".  This is, after all, the Costco/Wal*Mart America.  Most people are probably buying sub-$1000 HD TVs from these places right now because they are cheap and have a big, shiny bright screen.

HD-DVD and Blue ray could become an audio-phile type technology reserved for only the folks with the highest attention to resolution fidelity.  The rest of America will be playing DVDs, streaming low-res YouTube content to their Costco TV's and happy with how big the DVD looks on their big TV.  I completely agree with Kurto.  I think optical media is a dead-end for of technology.

I also think the whole situation is going to be affected by VOD and downloadable content from the web - low res in the format and convenience over high-res with an annoying box and physical media.  It will be the mp3 story all over again with video.

Last edited by Czachorski (2007-09-04 2:03 pm)

Until high bandwidth connections are a standard, on demand content in full HD will be limited at best.  Until you can stream a 15-40 gig file in real time, it just wont meet the quality of optical media.

It will happen some day, but not, I think, in the lifetime of the current generation of formats.

Czachorski wrote:

frankly wrote:

Kurto2021 wrote:

HD DVD and BluRay offer nothing substantial over their predecessor other than video quality and that isn't going to appeal to the mass market.

It is once the mass market has HD televisions and that will happen at some point in the next couple of years. Broadcast television is no longer going to be sent out in non-HD. Then what?

Frank

Will the Mass Market buy high-quality HD sets that make HD discs look substantially better than DVDs?  Will the mass market even know how to turn down the store-setting for high contrast and brightness designed to make the consumers say "ohhh - shiny and bright.  It must be better".  This is, after all, the Costco/Wal*Mart America.  Most people are probably buying sub-$1000 HD TVs from these places right now because they are cheap and have a big, shiny bright screen.

HD-DVD and Blue ray could become an audio-phile type technology reserved for only the folks with the highest attention to resolution fidelity.  The rest of America will be playing DVDs, streaming low-res YouTube content to their Costco TV's and happy with how big the DVD looks on their big TV.  I completely agree with Kurto.  I think optical media is a dead-end for of technology.

I also think the whole situation is going to be affected by VOD and downloadable content from the web - low res in the format and convenience over high-res with an annoying box and physical media.  It will be the mp3 story all over again with video.

Brightness and contrast are not the issue. The number of pixels that are represented by a DVD vs. the number on an HD-DVD or Blu-Ray are noticeable, even on the cheapest HD television. If I watch a DVD on my computer screen right now I can tell that it isn't as clear as when I watch it on my television and I only have a 1680x1050 display. Imagine how bad it would look on 1920x1080.

Frank

frankly wrote:

Czachorski wrote:

Warin wrote:

Until high bandwidth connections are a standard, on demand content in full HD will be limited at best.  Until you can stream a 15-40 gig file in real time, it just wont meet the quality of optical media.

It will happen some day, but not, I think, in the lifetime of the current generation of formats.

And consumers have proven many times over that "good enough" quality in the format and portability they desire will win them over the higher quality in a format that is inconvenient.

You seem to be forgetting that there is a HUGE market of people that purchase DVDs right now. When these people move up to an HD set they aren't going to all of the sudden not want to own a hard copy of the movies they watch. The dramatic change you are assuming isn't just in delivery but in the way people own content. I think there will be people interested in streaming but the masses that buy new DVDs every week at Walmart and Best Buy are going to want an HD form of those new movies when they switch.

Frank

I hope so, because the wide-spread adoption of these technologies will drive the prices down.  I've been frustrated because for the last 10 years, the adoption of everything HD has been way slower than anyone ever predicted at every step of the process, starting with the FCC procrastinating the switch over multiple times.

Aqua OS X wrote:

No one has forgotten about Beta / VHS. Most people are all too aware of it.

It's because we wanted cheap, fast pornography, right? VHS delivered, Dog bless 'em!

robco wrote:

Warin wrote:

Until high bandwidth connections are a standard, on demand content in full HD will be limited at best.  Until you can stream a 15-40 gig file in real time, it just wont meet the quality of optical media.

It will happen some day, but not, I think, in the lifetime of the current generation of formats.

Bear in mind that optical media isn't instant either. You either have to drive down to Wal-Mart or order/rent online and wait for shipping. The files aren't nearly that large. I can fit at least a few HD films on the 20GB HD on the 360. And if I'm only renting them, I don't have to keep them long. As long as they can make it so the consumer could start downloading and watching in less time than it takes to drive down to the video store, hope they have it, rent it and drive back, it will work. There's also the bonus of being able to do it all without getting up from the sofa. Never underestimate the power of American laziness.

Right now one of the main glitches with AppleTV is that content must be purchased from a PC/Mac and can't be done via the remote. The 360 doesn't have that weakness (but uses stupid Microsoft Points instead of actual currency). Apple also needs to get that while consumers may want to own their music, they may not always want to own movies and TV shows and needs to roll out a rental option.

And unless someone designs the interface really well then you sir are overestimating the average American's ability to figure out new tech

didn't they come out with super-high-quality audio CDs a little while back? but i've never heard of anyone but the most dedicated audiophile buying them. people really are satisfied by quality that's "good enough." (which is why people still use itunes non-plus)